|
Post by Three Lions on Feb 18, 2005 7:22:45 GMT 1
EU = Austria + Belgium + Cyprus + Czech Rep + Denmark + Estonia + Finland + France + Germany + Hungary + Ireland + Italy + Latvia + Lithunia + Luxembourg + Malta + Poland + Portuagal + Slovakia + Slovenia + Spain + Sweden + Holland + UK BUT NOT YOU!
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Feb 18, 2005 9:10:08 GMT 1
Simple equation guest; if the UK doesn't agree to Croatia's entry; Croatia wont be allowed into the EU. I believe that even if the Uk does agree to Croatia joining, Slovenia will block you.
My point was, a lot of Croats really hate the British, and if it was widely known in the UK, Croatia would become very unpopular in the UK and would never make the EU.
|
|
|
Post by guest on Feb 18, 2005 9:47:47 GMT 1
Who are you kidding. The UK does not like Croatians! Especially the English. They think Croatians are 2nd class citizens. So don't act all innocent like you brits love us and we are the haters!
Besides the UK is not full of love for each other either.....hmmm Scotland comes to mind! Everyone has their own demons but only Croatia's gets all their flaws pointed out (Gotovina) and used against them.
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Feb 18, 2005 10:02:25 GMT 1
Guest, your arrogance astounds me. The Uk is a big target, so Croats have a strong opinion about the UK, British people who are not connected to Croatia, i.e. 99% of Brits couldn’t care less about Croatia and have no opinion about them.
Croats hold so many prejudices towards brits it is laughable, I have spoken to Croats who say that most of Croats problems are the uk’s fault.
As for Scots and English, the English don’t hate the Scots, the Scots are very patriotic but the levels of distain are not even close to the feelings Croats have.
The only true problems are the Northern Ireland problem.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 18, 2005 13:35:06 GMT 1
Simple equation guest; if the UK doesn't agree to Croatia's entry; Croatia wont be allowed into the EU. I believe that even if the Uk does agree to Croatia joining, Slovenia will block you. My point was, a lot of Croats really hate the British, and if it was widely known in the UK, Croatia would become very unpopular in the UK and would never make the EU. Be serious. I don't think both Croatians or British care about each other at all, not even enought for effort to be read as - hate. As far as I am concerned, and all people I know - nobody cares about Britsh or UK at all. It is geographical fact, and some people who lives there. No emotions at all, especialy not fascination. And why you are concerned so much about Croatia entering EU ? It won't enter. I think that Eu gets pissed of seeing that because of missery there is first country which will celebrate staying outside EU. Just calm down, and leave people to do whatever they wan't in their country. Who will notice that some small Croatia is not inside EU ? Maybe somebody will ... but, lets wait and watch.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 18, 2005 13:35:55 GMT 1
EU = Austria + Belgium + Cyprus + Czech Rep + Denmark + Estonia + Finland + France + Germany + Hungary + Ireland + Italy + Latvia + Lithunia + Luxembourg + Malta + Poland + Portuagal + Slovakia + Slovenia + Spain + Sweden + Holland + UK BUT NOT YOU! ;D AND ME TOO!
|
|
|
Post by Billy Bright on Feb 18, 2005 15:37:34 GMT 1
Any of you brits heard of BLEIBURG?
Read up on the bleiburg massacres maybe then you might get the picture.
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Feb 18, 2005 16:46:17 GMT 1
Bill Bright, it seems you have found the truth and opened my eyes to why many Croats dislike Brits so much, I was aware of Bleiburg, but not the exact facts.
How strange how some nations forgive and move on, yet some spend their life time educating their children of past misery, and then being prejudice to all from that land. In the Uk many elderly people still have a bad opinion of Germans because of what happened in WWII the difference is they didn’t pass this on to the next generation.
Guest, Rubbish, most Croats have a very negative and jealous attitude towards Brits, it is not equal, feelings are not the same in both countries, stop the propaganda. Croats in general have very strong opinions about most nations and Brits are certainly in the top 5.
|
|
|
Post by guest on Feb 18, 2005 18:27:03 GMT 1
British.... (English) have their thoughts about Croatians, Americans, everyone....English have comments for alot of other countries because they think so much of themselves.
That is a fact!
Dream on if you think the Scots have no problem with the English..... to bad you English could not be a fly on the wall when a big family of Scots are sitting around in private and someone brings up the English....hahahaha.
You think other countries have forgotton English discretions....Hell No! People just don't talk about it openly. You think the Irish when they are sitting around talking in their family room and the mention of the English come up they start talking about happy times.....Don't be foolish! That is not reality.
Just because someone does not talk about something, DON'T THINK THAT THEY HAVE FORGOTTEN!
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 18, 2005 18:28:25 GMT 1
Bill Bright, it seems you have found the truth and opened my eyes to why many Croats dislike Brits so much, I was aware of Bleiburg, but not the exact facts. How strange how some nations forgive and move on, yet some spend their life time educating their children of past misery, and then being prejudice to all from that land. In the Uk many elderly people still have a bad opinion of Germans because of what happened in WWII the difference is they didn’t pass this on to the next generation. Guest, Rubbish, most Croats have a very negative and jealous attitude towards Brits, it is not equal, feelings are not the same in both countries, stop the propaganda. Croats in general have very strong opinions about most nations and Brits are certainly in the top 5. If you and other 10 million of British in Croatia say so - who am I to oppose. So I will stop propaganda.
|
|
|
Post by Guest on Feb 19, 2005 0:50:20 GMT 1
I'm a croat from Australia and yes even here the majority of croatians hate the british in fact even i do. But then again croats hate everyone except the irish and germans. So what if we hate the british most of france, germany, ireland, scotland, wales, spain, basically all of the middle east, india, pacific nations, argentina..... basically everyone hates you.
;D
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 19, 2005 5:57:13 GMT 1
I'm a croat from Australia and yes even here the majority of croatians hate the british in fact even i do. But then again croats hate everyone except the irish and germans. So what if we hate the british most of france, germany, ireland, scotland, wales, spain, basically all of the middle east, india, pacific nations, argentina..... basically everyone hates you. ;D hmmm ... we see another oppinion about Croatians "in general". Not far from truth, but ... this will need some very "unpleasant" explanation to be understood. Basicaly, those who lost ww2 on side of fashists emigrated on west, and in next few decades was supported by comunists ( Tito just needed them to keep level of "fear of nationalist enemie which was never defeated") until Tudjman called them back at 1990. and started sharade called "peace between all Croats" (wrongly assouming that by "as* kissing" extreme emigration will bring huge amounts of money and conections with western goverments, and secret services). But, it turned out that in reality he just give chance to ex. fashists (called - political emigration on west, but politicaly - still fashists) to defeat civile society over night (which was slowly becoming majority in Croatia until that time), and continue their political life like it is 1945., and they was never defeated. In return Tudjman got "hostage situation" where civile society finded itself between imported Croatian fashists on one side and Miloshevics Serbian fashists on the other ... And people just choosed "less evil" just trying to save their own head. So, EMIZ, when I defend my position, I am defending it from this perspective, and I don't alow you, or anybody else to mix me with people who has "romantic vision" over fashism (which was same deadly for both Croatians and Serbs in ww2), just because they was sucessfuly manipulated by both comunists and western secret services for decades. I know, and I bet you know - that those doesn't want EU even close to Croatia, and are close to money and power (meaning - closer to you then to me). So, when you talk about nationalists, "romantic fashists", and people who hate everybody (including British), you are deeply offending me. Give me suggestions, and stop "generalising", because again I am in "hostage situation", but almost without choice. Understand ?
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Feb 19, 2005 14:42:31 GMT 1
Old guest, thank you for your insight. I find your views very interesting because you clearly have much more knowledge of the situation than me. My views do include many generalisations but I find them difficult to avoid when raising negatives issues about a certain problem, however I must stress that I know that many Croats are nice and open minded people, the problem is too many people are not.
The only issue I have with your posts is this; if we are all honest...if we drop the pretence we all want Croatia to improve, we don't want things to stay exactly how they are.
The average Croatian in the street, is living a financially strained life, this affects you more than me, I can leave anything I want.
So if most people agree that Croatia needs to move forward, constantly looking back through history and constantly judging a person, a country or a situation on what happened during the relics of time, will do nothing but hinder Croatia. Also to judge a person on the actions of its government is nonsensical and in bad taste, for my experience many Croats struggle to be objective and even consider why any Country would act in a certain way, for them the country is either with them or against them, somewhat of a communist attitude.
You're right, too many people are the top of Croatian society are making a lot of money from cheating the system thus cheating the people, these people don't want things to change.
For example, there is very senior Doctor that I know of in Zagreb, he is paid a low salary like most doctors here, however this guy is involved in politics, therefore he makes decisions on which supplies to buy, he makes 5% on all hospital purchases this guys yearly income is almost €500,000. Do you think he wants to join the EU? Of course he doesn't
In short, history is history, every person should be proud of their country and its achievements but you should not let something that happened hundreds of years ago affect your actions. If the UK and other countries are against Croatia joining the EU, at the moment; think to yourself, why? I assure you it is not because of WWII, it is because of the current situation.
Croatia needs to address the problems as best it can, I don’t know enough about Gotovina to say if he should be sent to Hauge, but I am absolutely certain that the Croatian government could find him if they wanted to, for that matter I am certain that the UK government could find him if they really wanted to, but why would they? This is a test of Croatia’s compliance. Then the next issue a much bigger issue will be controlling the border with Bosnia, one that I suspect will be too big to overcome.
Croatia is in the heart of Europe, it has many natural assets, it has a beautiful coast, and it is a small country so building internal infrastructure should not prove too difficult. Croatia needs help to move forward, the people who want to sit and say Croatia is the most amazing place on earth and doesn’t need to improve, needs a smack in the mouth.
Take the help, do whatever you need to get this help, then in 15 years time your children will be living better life’s with brighter futures, in 25 years time, Croatia will be one of the countries helping other countries improve.
Stop looking back…..look forward!
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 19, 2005 15:34:46 GMT 1
Old guest, thank you for your insight. I find your views very interesting because you clearly have much more knowledge of the situation than me. My views do include many generalisations but I find them difficult to avoid when raising negatives issues about a certain problem, however I must stress that I know that many Croats are nice and open minded people, the problem is too many people are not. The only issue I have with your posts is this; if we are all honest...if we drop the pretence we all want Croatia to improve, we don't want things to stay exactly how they are. The average Croatian in the street, is living a financially strained life, this affects you more than me, I can leave anything I want. So if most people agree that Croatia needs to move forward, constantly looking back through history and constantly judging a person, a country or a situation on what happened during the relics of time, will do nothing but hinder Croatia. Also to judge a person on the actions of its government is nonsensical and in bad taste, for my experience many Croats struggle to be objective and even consider why any Country would act in a certain way, for them the country is either with them or against them, somewhat of a communist attitude. You're right, too many people are the top of Croatian society are making a lot of money from cheating the system thus cheating the people, these people don't want things to change. For example, there is very senior Doctor that I know of in Zagreb, he is paid a low salary like most doctors here, however this guy is involved in politics, therefore he makes decisions on which supplies to buy, he makes 5% on all hospital purchases this guys yearly income is almost €500,000. Do you think he wants to join the EU? Of course he doesn't In short, history is history, every person should be proud of their country and its achievements but you should not let something that happened hundreds of years ago affect your actions. If the UK and other countries are against Croatia joining the EU, at the moment; think to yourself, why? I assure you it is not because of WWII, it is because of the current situation. Croatia needs to address the problems as best it can, I don’t know enough about Gotovina to say if he should be sent to Hauge, but I am absolutely certain that the Croatian government could find him if they wanted to, for that matter I am certain that the UK government could find him if they really wanted to, but why would they? This is a test of Croatia’s compliance. Then the next issue a much bigger issue will be controlling the border with Bosnia, one that I suspect will be too big to overcome. Croatia is in the heart of Europe, it has many natural assets, it has a beautiful coast, and it is a small country so building internal infrastructure should not prove too difficult. Croatia needs help to move forward, the people who want to sit and say Croatia is the most amazing place on earth and doesn’t need to improve, needs a smack in the mouth. Take the help, do whatever you need to get this help, then in 15 years time your children will be living better life’s with brighter futures, in 25 years time, Croatia will be one of the countries helping other countries improve. Stop looking back…..look forward! EMIZ ... I am not looking back ... Unfortunately, some parts of history was "jumped over" here. And this influenced todays situation very much, and is influencing your, mine and EU's oppinion on Croatia. Moral deviations which become acceptable part of menthality did't came out from nowhere. This happened in recent history ... not 700 years ago. EU is very much influenced by recent history, and one of its main motivativation to get established was to ww2 situation never become possible again ... Here it was just opposite ... So I really tought this needed little bit of explaining ... Not "complaining" or "arguing", just small - insight.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 19, 2005 17:43:15 GMT 1
One more thing ... I think we was talking abut politics and general issues here ... especialy when it comes to relations between EU and Croatia. I understand you see personal and business part as most important, so to "ground" my views ...
Personaly, i live very good, measured with not Croatian measures. I created enviroment around me with few educated and talented persons (also my friends), and we are making good money out of our hard labour (we work as much is needed), fighting for our space mostly outside Croatian market (75 percent). So, I shouldn't complain in this part, we take good benefits from "free markets".
But because we function like this, leaves us completly - out of system here. We exsist only because we pay - huge taxes. Nothing more, and nothing less.
Services we are giving inside Croatia are on same market where for example "goverment protected and supported" houses can do whatever they wan't, competing with us with same tax money we are paying. Unfortunately they decide about market, prices and business options in our area, and if we made mistake and accepted this logic (as many did) - we will not exsist any more ...
So, honnestly I don't know how this situation will change and will it change if we join EU ? I don't mind entering or not entering EU because I don't see how will I be able to influnce business localy even if we join EU. Joining EU will only give me more opportunity to compete on markets near me (so far mostly I do business with US ). As I can see, so far EU wasn't preasuring this part of Croatian economy which is completly suppresing any initiative in creative areas. And by my oppinion this are most important areas. More then factory labour, trading or services in tourism ...
Fact is that one huge goverment - protected - high priority - mastodont (but in reality "safe heaven" for "political influence" and "non talented cousins") with all this govermens money - still can't compete 5 persons facilite. Of course they are scared of EU, and they will do everything to prevent Croatia joining EU. But they are those who create "public oppinion".
Does this sounds more like reality ?
|
|