Politicians

On many of the threads here on the site, there continues to be debate about the corrupt politicians in Croatia. My questions are: who are thery, why are they so corrupt, how does the corruption affect the lives of the average Croatian citizen, and what can be done to change this?

I really want to have a better understanding of the political system in Croatia. I hope to gain a greater acceptance of the people, economy, and culture when I visit.

I am open to listen to any opinions-the more the better!

Thanks-

Where does one start? It runs top to bottom. The red tape in Croatia breeds corruption. Any little thing you want to do, you need 20 papers. And then some. You also need to prove that you are you over and over again.
How does it affect the average citizen? It takes years off your life. Just last week my mother went to chase up some paper or another, and the guy who's job it is to provide these papers says this to her: "Who the hell are you? Why should I help you? Get out of my office".
The procedure followed is this- someone from the "underground" would announce the day before that my mother would be coming re: her papers and bringing the bribe in order to get her papers. She obviously didn't follow this customary way and as a result got chucked out of the office without having obtained the documents she needed.
No point in complaining because the guy who's next up is even worse.
End of story.

[EMIZZZZAGREB]

Years of communism are to blame. Croatia is built on complete distrusts. I guess if you tell people long enough that they are liars, then they become liars.

People will try and tell you it is only the politicians who are corrupt, its not true, most people are corrupt in Croatia (people will undoubtedly say that is not true, but I don’t know who they are trying to convince, me or themselves).

The average miro in the street is just as responsible, purchasing managers nearly all expect bribes to do their jobs, junior government officials expect to be bribed, almost every judge in Croatia has a price. Its rotten top the bottom and the only way it will change is from the bottom up, people need to stop paying these bribes.

I have heard on the grapevine that a Croatian who has lived for many years in Germany, is considering starting an anti corruption political party, this would be a good move, but Croats are such creatures of habits that I would be surprised if many people changed their alliances.

[Ribaric]

Drive through any border and you've a 20% chance of being told that something or other warrants any of a number of charges - carina, pdv etc. Ask how do you pay the "clearance" (insert any suitable euphamism) fee and you'll be told to give 25% of it the girl in the office - in cash - no receipt. Dobro dosli. Job done.

Mind you, in the UK, you'll have to pay the full whack and have to wait an hour while the paperwork is completed. You could make an argument about which is worse!

[EMIZZZZAGREB]

Not once has anybody in the uk tried to charge me tax for something I already own, it happens everytime something is posted to me here.

Do you sense any change from these corrupt practices with the younger generation? Are young adults that are going to college, beginning careers, starting families, able to support themselves (ie. own a home or rent an apartment, own a car, save for retirement)?

Do you think that the change coming from 'the bottom up' will occur with this generation of young adults or will it take several generations?

American said:

Do you sense any change from these corrupt practices with the younger generation? Are young adults that are going to college, beginning careers, starting families, able to support themselves (ie. own a home or rent an apartment, own a car, save for retirement)?

Do you think that the change coming from 'the bottom up' will occur with this generation of young adults or will it take several generations?

Corruption here is how it feels in any country. How do Americans feel about their pres. bush & D.Chey when they are stealing all big contracts in Iraq and filling their pockets or any of your politicians that steal.

You feel a bit of despair like what can I DO!

Most corruption is in the government. What emiz is saying about the people is just not true. We have the same amount of population that are dishonest as any country. our dishonest population is not higher here it is the same as anywhere else.


If you listen to emiz then.... bobsyour uncles MOTHER is corrupt, I am corrupt, my family is corrupt, my friends and neighbors are corrupt....THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE!

and not everything you do in the gov... is corrupt. I guess it is a little like roulette sometimes you get the number.... and that is the person that is going to ask you for a bribe. It is not an everyday thing that you have to deal with everyday.

You ask what politicians are dirty.... well the pres M is a dummy.... and I believe that Sanda is a theif lining his pockets. all their friends I believe are pretty bad. Like in the USA.. you have lobbies...someone gives money to politicians to help there cause or to be able to get there agenda heard.... same as here but not a lobbie..just individuals that say rub my back I will rub yours....

Yes money buys you respect and gets you out of certain troubles but do you think that is Croatia's problem alone. Look american women.... your OJ bought himself a dream team. I know he did because my inlaw worked for him. Money buys you out of a lot of problems anywhere you live.


As for future generations here in Croatia.... I do personally think that this is what is going to bring change to us. I think the younger generation will not tolerate the corruption. I also think they will not tolerate people ruining the enviroment. I see this in my family that will be the next generation here in Croatia... they are tired of it. They have mouths and they are starting to use them....

So hope they have big mouths because this generation that is running things now has ed up big time with this country. Like I said in another post... Croatia is like at a stand still (stagnate) once things get moving we will be better. To many people want change. There is a movement coming no more stillness.

[EMIZZZZAGREB]

I haven't seen any change at all, I think things in Croatia are getting worse; the growth that was predicted is nowhere to be seen. People have an attitude of we will behave better, when we have opportunities and jobs and a fair salary blah blah.

The biggest problem I have with this, is 90% of Croats expect things to improve by themselves. They truly think that within 10 years, the economy will be like usa or uk....they are deluded.

OK-I hear both of you.

First-don't confuse corruption in government with corruption in the legal system. For example: President Bush and Vice President Cheney and their policies/practices can not be compared to the OJ Simpson fiasco. Two separate entities!

Big government 'wheels and deals' in every country. Some politician's are better at it than others. AND...some just don't get caught!

Private citizens that have money and celebrity (which truly is a corrupt form of power) are able to 'buy their way' out of anything-even murder.

Second-we are all hopeful that the future generation will 'do a better job of it than we did'. In the USA that has meant more government money being put into schools and education. The President's "No Child Left Behind" Initiative has it's critics, but the concept is good-raise the standard of education across the entire country (a well educated population will be more successful).

So-with that said and after reading the last 2 replies, two more questions:
1. Will the Croatian government be having a change in its leadership in the near future?
2. How are the young people educated?

I guess what I am trying to say is that we are all correct in the fact that there is corruption everywhere-how much we are willing to accept/put up with before we demand change is up to us. Here in the USA we get a chance to replace politicians in every election. Of course sometimes elections do not result in the candidate of your choice being elected-but that has to be accepted until the next election. Also-we have the opportunity to educate our children although it may be expensive, if education is a priority parents/adults make it happen.

I feel that these are 2 basic concepts that are necessary for a country to grow and prosper. Of what I have learned of Croatia and its' people, I get the sense that Croatia is on the verge of major change. I only hope that the change that comes is positive.

What do you think?

[z00ey]

Emiz is close to the truth... years of "socialist selfmanagement" had taken it's toll.

The corruption in the government is more or less a "normal" thing anywhere in the world (talking about top-ranking politicians and civil servants)

The corruption here is abominable at the middle state-employed ranks: talking about all kind of people that are supposed to provide you with services, but are on state salaries. Of course, not all of them are corrupt, probably even less than we tend to think, but the problems that arise spread like toxic waste.

I'm talking about: judicial and police system, tax and customs officials, medicare, town/municipal services, education (especially university), even art and architecture!

Is it only because the salaries are low? I think it's more of "if everybody is doing it, why should I differ" state of mind.

But this is also quite common in other countries, especially those that OVERREGULATE their affairs (honestly, if you follow ALL the rules in a, ie, town planning regulation, you couldn't develop practicly nothing of added value, so you pay a "different interpretation" of the same rules, either directly or through some "friends")

This CAN be avoided, though. The only true way is a liberalization (with ecological/social care, of course), and adding transparency and speed using (h3h3, again the magic potion mutlisolving remedy) the Web. More and more Croats, especially the young and vigorous, are using it on a regular basis, so the young kick in and the oldies die out.

The thing that worries me most is corruption not in the above mentioned instances, but the growing corruption in PRIVATELY owned companies, even corporations. How is it possible that you have corruption in a major company, ie in construction contrscts? Why are there no more transparent competitions where quality and inexpensive bids get the deal?

I presume that a number of visitors on this forum are people that are managers in privately owned companies. Do you check your junior executives decisions? They tend to give jobs to "friends and relatives", even now.

[EMIZZZZAGREB]

Ghosts answer to everything is it’s the same everywhere else.

WHEN WILL YOU LEARN, IT ISN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not once, has a purchasing manager in England, Germany or even Italy asked me for a bribe, at least 80% of them do here. Never has a public official asked me for a bribe in England, I have lost count of the number of officials that have done that here.

I know somebody that built a hotel and had to bribe a judge in Sibenik at 3am just to get the licence he had already been awarded. Are you telling me he would have to do that in England?

There is a long delay for technical inspections for buildings in Zagreb, if you wish to bribe somebody in the mayor’s office you will se ethat your two year wait becomes two week
I don't know what to say, so you can understand that, it’s simply not true that is the same everywhere and ignoring the truth and aiming your bullets at only part of the problem will result in an unhealthy status quo.

Sadly as Zooey said, the vast majority of jobs are still awarded on a contact basis, the old saying of It’s not what you know its who you know is still very prevalent in Croatia.

95% of people in Croatia now how corrupt it is, the problem is the idealist youth is not a new concept, their desire for change will seen be overtaken by their desire for the mighty kuna, and when they are corrupted they will corrupt the generation that follows, its the Croatian way.

[midge]

Corruption is widespread. Nothing works properly. Many think they are above the law and unfortunately many do escape the hand of justice. Basically it's all about knowing the right people and being willing to bribe them.

a few days ago i saw a story on the news about jadranka kosor. she apparently had 1.000.000 kn placed on her personal account. she explained how she already donated half of the money to donations ,without giving any evidence ...and that she still has half a million on her personal account. baaaaahahahahhaa. thats all i have to say.
and there have been no follow ups to the story , its all blown over . 5 mintues ...story told and all forgotten .
p:s. baaahahahahahahahha

i know of people who have had their land made unsellable...because of their political views. the land has had a huge road drwn through the center of it in an urban plan and it will never ever be made . but any potenital buyer wont buy the land as a result .
also...there are people building apartment buildings and then selling them and making a profit. yeah...thats all normal. but the problem is that i wont get as far as a building permit if i try to do the same thing. the law in croatia is not equal for all. if you try starting any investment activity in croatia by which you may earn anything of any significance...you will have huge problems . and you most very likely wont get as far as the first person you see in the local opcina. ...whos favorite word is NO!!! and they love hearing your investemnt ideas ...and if the ideas any good.. ...dont worry...youve just become an investment consultant.
i dont get what the local councils in croatia are doing..other than collecting fines??we are all waiting for the new urban plan from zg. i cant wait to see it.