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Post by 3lions on Oct 26, 2010 13:22:03 GMT 1
It can be much worse................they will start plundering the EU subsidies and since Croatia will also have to contribute to the EU (percentage of GDP) it will mean less money for the people. Wages are much higher in all the EU countries, sure Croatia will have to undergo serious restructuring to compete in the EU, but they will have to tackle this at some point anyway. What are the stats on this, will Croatia have to contribute more than it recieves, I find that hard to believe, or did you just make it up ;D
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Post by ray51 on Oct 26, 2010 15:02:14 GMT 1
My opinion is that if these countries are in the EU they will start to open up their ways of thinking on various policies. There are no other forces of change in these countries. Who would care or go to Bulgaria if it was not in the EU? Who would care about Croatia if it was not on the road to integration, other than those who want to sit on the beach and eat cevapcici? You are talking about countries that have never been open to outside change for at least 50 years. Great , IF you have the time to wait another few dozens of years , before any tangible improvements seep through , however slowly ; sadly , not all of us are in the same boat here !?
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Post by 3lions on Oct 26, 2010 15:40:20 GMT 1
well you have to wait years, that's it.
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Post by ray51 on Oct 26, 2010 19:38:26 GMT 1
Recognised and ( sadly & with respect ) acknowledged ! ( which is one of the main reasons I'm not in HR yet )
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Post by mambo on Oct 27, 2010 0:32:02 GMT 1
@ 3Lions,
The amount of money a country has to contribute to the EU is based on a percentage of GDP. As for now the maximum is 1.24 %. In return countries can receive subsidies, making it possible that you get more money than you need to pay.
However..................
The money which is paid by the countries is on top of what the budget is at this moment. In other words, Croatia does not pay anything to the EU at this moment, only gets subsidies. Once Croatia enters the EU it will have to start paying money to the EU and this means the government will start charging more tax. The subsidies which are returned can be funneled in all kinds of fake companies and other ways to roam off the subsidies.
In reality it means that money flows from the pockets of the people through the EU into the pockets of the politicians. This is a standard scheme in most Southern EU countries, so I don't see any reason why Croatia would be an exception, especially when it is 62 on the list of corrupt countries.
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Post by Madgolfer on Oct 27, 2010 8:53:26 GMT 1
So far it has taken Croatia longer than any other country to join the EU, partly I assume due to the lessons learned by the EUs recent experiences with Bulgaria and Romania.
One would assume that the EU will insist on having better financial controls in place for new members in the future.
More fool the EU if they do not impose strict and transparent regulations.
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Post by 3lions on Oct 27, 2010 13:58:30 GMT 1
@ 3Lions, The amount of money a country has to contribute to the EU is based on a percentage of GDP. As for now the maximum is 1.24 %. In return countries can receive subsidies, making it possible that you get more money than you need to pay. However.................. The money which is paid by the countries is on top of what the budget is at this moment. In other words, Croatia does not pay anything to the EU at this moment, only gets subsidies. Once Croatia enters the EU it will have to start paying money to the EU and this means the government will start charging more tax. The subsidies which are returned can be funneled in all kinds of fake companies and other ways to roam off the subsidies. In reality it means that money flows from the pockets of the people through the EU into the pockets of the politicians. This is a standard scheme in most Southern EU countries, so I don't see any reason why Croatia would be an exception, especially when it is 62 on the list of corrupt countries. I don't think you are providing any real facts, the five richest nations which include the UK and Germany pay far more in than they get out. Why would Croatia pay more in than it would get out? Its not on the same level. I agree with the fact that EU poticians are paid over the top, but then again as a whole this is the largest economy and the richest economy in the world. It's easy to pick holes in it but why wouldn't Croatians want to make themselves better off?
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Post by mambo on Oct 27, 2010 18:08:49 GMT 1
@ 3 Lions,
It is not that Croatia won't get more money out of the EU than they pay. In fact, most likely they will get more subsidies than they have to pay.
To put it in numbers.
Annual budget for Croatia (internal) is e.g. 2 billion euro All of this money is paid by the tax payers.
Now Croatia joins the EU and this means they will have to pay roughly 25 million euro to the EU.
This 25 million has to come from somewhere, so basically it means the tax payers will have to cough up this 25 million on top of the 2 billion they pay now.
The 25 million is sent to Europe and in return Croatia will return subsidies. Those subsidies will go to all kinds of projects, most of which are run by politicians and schemes set up by politicians e.g. the sports arena case, road construction, real estate development (marinas, hotels water projects etc) Thus the tax payers pay 25 million extra and the politicians get richer.
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Post by 3lions on Oct 28, 2010 10:20:46 GMT 1
I can't see this being the case as people in Croatia are already far more highly taxed than elsewhere, and there just isn't the margins to add more on top. Secondly it is far better that the EU promotes projects in Croatia and there are tangible results (as with the vastly improved roads) than it is just hidden away by officials in the Croatian government, which has dogged Croatia for so long. You are also missing the point that Croatia in the EU has the chance, like with Poland, to become a far richer country, than if it just stays outside. Too late anyway as Croatia will join sooner rather than later, or they will have to give all the money back .
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Post by mambo on Oct 28, 2010 11:49:09 GMT 1
@ 3Lions,
Of course Croatia has the chance to become much richer...........that is how you and I see it, but that is not how the politicians see it. They are only looking at their own wallet: 'how can they profit from entering the EU'.
And don't come and tell me that this does not happen. Just look at all the corruption schemes we have seen in italy, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria etc. The scheme is extremely simple: you come up with some sort of project, then help your own company to the job and next thing you do is over billing the whole thing.
Or, you find a project, buy the land first and then sell the land for a fortune to this project.
Trust me, the Croatian politicians (local and national) are going to have a lot of fun stealing as much money as they can. My guess is that only one third will be used for the project, the rest will be stolen. It sounds negative, but with all the schemes we have seen in other countries and knowing they are already corrupt in Croatia it is like 'tying the cat on the bacon' as we would say it in Holland.
And yes, the local people will pay the price, because the budget is already stretched to the limit and Croatia will have to pay the contribution to the EU.
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Post by 3lions on Oct 28, 2010 17:09:07 GMT 1
...well it won't be as easy as stealing from the people. What the EU brings is some form of accountability. Anywhere where there is none, money goes missing.
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