|
Post by Carol on Sept 16, 2015 6:59:25 GMT 1
The news this morning says that the Serbia - Hungary - Austria - Germany route is being blocked for the refugee columns that have been moving across Europe from Libya and Syria. Assuming the refugees will keep coming (and I can't see how they wouldn't), then surely Croatia is next?
Rib- isn't Varazdin near the borders with Hungary and Slovenia?
How will the Croats react? They've got extensive experience of dealing with refugee crises, and maybe quite a lot of humanity too? On the other hand, Croatia is quite aggressively catholic (i.e. not that tolerant of Muslims) and its not wealthy like Austria or Germany who have been very willing to donate things to the refugees so far.
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Sept 16, 2015 7:41:35 GMT 1
Rib- isn't Varazdin near the borders with Hungary and Slovenia? How will the Croats react? They've got extensive experience of dealing with refugee crises, and maybe quite a lot of humanity too? On the other hand, Croatia is quite aggressively catholic (i.e. not that tolerant of Muslims) and its not wealthy like Austria or Germany who have been very willing to donate things to the refugees so far. Spot on Carol. People here are waiting with some trepidation. Our border with Serbia is mostly the Danube so crossings will be a bit difficult. I'm told the border with Bosnia is about to be festooned with thousands of new signs reminding would-be cross country types that about a million mines remain in the ground. In toen, nobody really knows what to expect. The mayor is talking about re-opening the old barracks but I'm not sure anyone coming here will be interested in staying very long. So much for Schengen huh?
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 16, 2015 7:57:55 GMT 1
Is there sympathy? Or a siege mentality? or both?
Landmines... good point! They need to write them in either syrian or english though. No point saying it in Croatian!
|
|
|
Post by crojoe on Sept 16, 2015 8:49:14 GMT 1
Is there sympathy? Or a siege mentality? or both? Landmines... good point! They need to write them in either syrian or english though. No point saying it in Croatian! While I do see there is "some" sympathy, I doubt Croats will be that happy if they start to see huge numbers like Hungary. It's amazing how much the West criticizes Hungary, but they have been the only ones that have actually upheld EU law on refugees. Sure, the fence might not look great, but Hungary wants to protects it's own borders and maybe even it's peoples? Not all these refugees are good people or "real" refugees, many are financial migrants (check youtube with so called "refugees" throwing away water and food and demanding everything under the sun). Most are young men who I guess don't want to stay and fight for their country (although maybe it's a loosing war seeing the Wests attitude towards Asad... you would think they are trying to get rid of him). Merkel was nuts to just say "welcome" to one and all (and now closed the border). Notice many "refugees" only want to go to the richest European countries, so this does makes me question this migration (they even want to avoid Denmark who recently changed their benefit system). I doubt Croatia will be a place most of these migrants will want to stay in, nor do I believe Croatia will be that accommodating. Last year something like 750 persons applied for refugee status and only 21 got it. I think Croatia will react much like Czech, Poland, Hungary and other Eastern European EU countries.... allow them to pass through but not settle. At least it's only 3-4 hours from the Serbian border to the Slovenian border via a nice highway (lets hope the refugees don't try and walk it). The EU government has made a real mess of this, and makes you wonder if they encouraged the mass migration for some reason? They can't even call emergency meetings on the subject until most recently (up till now they just looked the other way). Notice how Germany and France are trying to tell all other member states what they can and can't do .... so much for unity and EU democracy (if we can call it that).
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 16, 2015 17:19:55 GMT 1
Families with young children - why would anyone put their children through that unless they had no other option (apart from a refugee camp somewhere in North Africa - which cannot be a long term solution)? So, they must surely be genuine refugees, fleeing Asad or Isis, or both.
People - typically young, single men - from Ghana or Pakistan who've taken advantage of the complete lawlessness of Syria, are economic migrants (who presumably couldn't get visas to live and work in EU countries by the traditional embassy application method).
The question is how to tell the real refugees from the people who are just taking advantage of the situation?
Knowing Croatia, i don't see how it can cope, even if they only use it as a through-route. However, its more than likely, that Slovenia and Hungary will quickly throw up barriers along the Croatian borders too, and then Croatia will really have an expensive problem that would test the tolerance of a rich, liberal country.
How long do people think it will take Croatia to decide to close the border with Serbia?
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 16, 2015 18:16:39 GMT 1
Looks like Croatia plans to let them pass straight through whilst Slovenia says only go there if you want to claim refugee status in Slovenia. Meanwhile Austria is putting up border controls with Slovenia.
And Hungary is putting up fences along the Croatian border.
This looks like a croatian problem is brewing...!
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Sept 16, 2015 20:58:22 GMT 1
Looks like Croatia plans to let them pass straight through whilst Slovenia says only go there if you want to claim refugee status in Slovenia. Meanwhile Austria is putting up border controls with Slovenia. And Hungary is putting up fences along the Croatian border. This looks like a croatian problem is brewing...! It does. Probably at the CRO-SLO borders where they won't be allowed into SLO and CRO won't want them to come back. All the time, everyone will profess their humanitarianism and blame everyone else. This shows there's only a very small 'u' in the EU.
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 17, 2015 6:50:19 GMT 1
No, I agree, we are not seeing a united front. To be fair, Germany did take a lot of refugees before it said "enough", but it was a little short sighted not to think that if you open your doors, then more will be encouraged to come. So, if a country does agree to letting as many come as they want, they have to be prepared for an unlimited number.
I fear that, despite its early willingness to be amenable, this will not end well for Croatia's perception abroad. Already, the media in the Uk is talking about the country as though it is laced with landmines. I suspect Croatia will start to attract headlines, similar to those Hungary has had in the last 24 hours, when it finds it cannot cope with more migrants and uses force to stop them coming. That won't help its tourist industry.
|
|
|
Post by crojoe on Sept 17, 2015 10:50:47 GMT 1
No, I agree, we are not seeing a united front. To be fair, Germany did take a lot of refugees before it said "enough", but it was a little short sighted not to think that if you open your doors, then more will be encouraged to come. So, if a country does agree to letting as many come as they want, they have to be prepared for an unlimited number. I fear that, despite its early willingness to be amenable, this will not end well for Croatia's perception abroad. Already, the media in the Uk is talking about the country as though it is laced with landmines. I suspect Croatia will start to attract headlines, similar to those Hungary has had in the last 24 hours, when it finds it cannot cope with more migrants and uses force to stop them coming. That won't help its tourist industry. Thank goodness the brunt of the tourist season is over in Croatia, but yep, if anyone has an axe to grind with Croatia they will no doubt use the situation to their advantage. The world media reporting on this is pathetic. Hungary is now the villain (protecting their own border and trying to police EU law... can't so anything right) when in fact the likes of Merkal and others helped created this mess, plus the EU's unwillingness to address the matter at face value. Thankfully the refugees are not landing on the Croatian coast as in some places in Italy and Greece it has driven away tourism. The problem here is most "refugees" don't want to get signed up in places like Croatia, fearing they will have to stay put for years while their applications get sorted (imagine how long that will take in a country who's red tape is legendary). Most, if not all want to go to Germany (seems to be the only "safe haven" in Europe if we go by what "refugees" say).
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 17, 2015 11:19:47 GMT 1
Its not just Germany, they (the migrants) rather like Sweden too, but that means passing through Denmark (which have recently changed its benefit system to the migrants detriment and is determined to process refugees as per the EU-Danish agreement, rather than just let them roam through their country.
A unified approach is what is required, but its not what the EU is going to provide. So, Croatia will fill up until it loses patience and the the problem will be Serbia's and Bosnia's.
Intuitively, it feels like the obvious solution is to make their home country safe for them to live in...
|
|
|
Post by crojoe on Sept 17, 2015 12:24:36 GMT 1
Its not just Germany, they (the migrants) rather like Sweden too, but that means passing through Denmark (which have recently changed its benefit system to the migrants detriment and is determined to process refugees as per the EU-Danish agreement, rather than just let them roam through their country. A unified approach is what is required, but its not what the EU is going to provide. So, Croatia will fill up until it loses patience and the the problem will be Serbia's and Bosnia's. Intuitively, it feels like the obvious solution is to make their home country safe for them to live in... For sure, the able bodies men should stay and fight for their country to make it "safe", but then again it could be a loosing battle as one one side we got ISIL terrorizing people with sheer terror (some how backed by some ones with loads of money ...but for some reason they remain a total mastery to USA and EU intelligence) and then we got the West (sadly UK included) who seem to want to get rid of Assad, who by all accounts is a pretty moderate Muslim in that region. While I'm not a Putan fan, I think Russia are doing the right thing by helping Assad to fight Isil. Of course the West has got to make it out to be some mini cold-war scenario ... good West vs. evil Russia. I believe Isil are by far the worst group in modern times, and it's amazing how the world just sits by and does nothing about it (other then a few hit or miss bombing raids on "suspected targets" which also seem to cause a lot of collateral damage ... killing innocent woman and children). All these refugees are going to cost us tax payers billions, so why not resolve the issue at the core (or is there another agenda at play .... and billions in profit for "some" are at stake?). If things keep going as they have, countries like Croatia, Serbia, Greece, Italy and others will become refugee dumping grounds for years to come. I think Merkel woke up to the fact that not every German was behind her open door plan. Just heard that over 5000+ refugees have now entered Croatia in the last few days. Serbia have said that 10,000 more are on their way. With Hungary closing the door the migration has turned towards Croatia. Croatian TV showing refugees don't want to register in Croatia or be sent to any Croatian town or refugee holding centers... all headed for the promised land... Germany & Sweden (wonder why none are trying to get to Switzerland?). Yep, Denmark got smart quick, changed some laws (not a wait and see position... or schedule it for next month meeting) and in doing so made their country less appealing. The Croatian PM has said they have secondary plans in place if things get to be too much (still a secret).
|
|
|
Post by Carol on Sept 17, 2015 16:23:55 GMT 1
I suspect, that with its extremely low birth rate - lowest in the world now - Germany could do with some immigrants who are willing to have babies. However, the key word is "some".
So, they opened their borders and let them flood in and then decided they'd had enough and closed the borders again.
|
|
|
Post by crojoe on Sept 17, 2015 17:48:07 GMT 1
I suspect, that with its extremely low birth rate - lowest in the world now - Germany could do with some immigrants who are willing to have babies. However, the key word is "some". So, they opened their borders and let them flood in and then decided they'd had enough and closed the borders again. Maybe so Carol? Who knows? 5000 now crossed over into Croatia since yesterday. Some took 1 train supplied and a few on buses while many walking. Wonder how long it will take to walk to the Slovenian border via Zagreb from Serbian border? Police unable to hold the line, although most media scenes seem peaceful. Slight scuffle today in Zagreb where some refugees are housed and riot police sent in, but still pretty peaceful (a few bits of furniture and toilet rolls tossed). Looks like some have left the accommodation given and heading to the Slovenian border. Lets see what happens!
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Sept 17, 2015 20:03:11 GMT 1
The EU have sprung into action and have called an emergency summit ........... next week.
|
|
|
Post by crojoe on Sept 17, 2015 20:11:22 GMT 1
The EU have sprung into action and have called an emergency summit ........... next week. I suspect that Germany and France called for the meeting? I see they want to impose quotas for one and all to take their "fair share" while others don't. Today PM of Croatia said they are full up, but it didn't stop the next 6000 coming, with another 10K on the way (so say the Serbs). I could be wrong, but someone reported that one BIG German car manufacture is talking about employing the new refugees to build cars in their factories ... is this the start to low wage and zero hour contracts in Germany?
|
|