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Post by irac on Jan 20, 2006 16:20:34 GMT 1
Like gambling buying property as an investment is a risk. Some companies are trying their best to market Montenegro and Bosnia as the new havens. Now while both those locations are wonderful and have so much to recommend them, it's also a massive risk. If Montengro secedes, when the war kicks off again in Bosnia, it's risky. But I met one man who bought 2 apartment blocks from private owners in Neum and he says he can now sell them for a whopping 250% profit. It all depends on why you're buying.
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Post by londonhack on Apr 3, 2006 17:33:49 GMT 1
I'd like to make a belated response to this debate. After a few weeks of taking a cursory look at the property market in Istria, I've come to the conclusion that I'd get just as much value for money in italy, spain or france. I'm pretty shocked at the prices of places I've seen. From what i've read here, buying is a nightmare and legally its inefficient and costly - so why, as a fickle investor, would I do it? I'\m sure this is the reason why things have slowed down. from what I've seen croatia is a beautiful place but it is a risk - legal minefields, recent history etc. Why buy there when you can invest in a much more stable economy for the same price?
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Post by Ribaric on Apr 3, 2006 17:50:46 GMT 1
If stability is your goal then fair enough, no argument. The risk factor is an attration in itself, if Italy is stable then your investment is more secure, great, if that's what you want. There is a perceived opportunity here that prices will increase, but it's a risk. Maybe they will, maybe not. Some of us are looking closely at Northern Cyprus, opportunities? probably.... Risks? Certainly.
You pays yer money..........
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Post by londonhack on Apr 3, 2006 18:06:41 GMT 1
But surely risk is only an attraction - investment wise - if you stand to make proportionally big returns? My point is that if prices were lower, i would be prepared to make the risk. But with prices similar to EU levels in Istria (for example) there's no benefit I can see in investing. There's no logic in taking a risk for a lousy return. To be honest, I am not looking for a big profit - i'm looking to buy a nice place in a nice place! I was looking in Istria but then i realised could buy as cheap - and cheaper - in southern italy with all the benefits of EU membership! Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places but when you're being quoted E200-300 for a 3bed farmhouse, that's not much of a bargain.
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Post by Ribaric on Apr 3, 2006 19:44:35 GMT 1
I think we are violently agreeing. The return must be proportionate to the risk, that's the judgement you are making about the prices you've seen in Istria. Frankly, I agree, they are too high but others disagree, they judge there will be a return and are going ahead. Either they've got it wrong or we have, we won't know for 5 years but it'll interesting to see how it all pans out. Goos luck in Amalfi etc... it's all a bit overcrowded down there for me. Just a judgement, I could be wrong!
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Post by gmh on Apr 3, 2006 19:48:11 GMT 1
Could be you're looking in the wrong place. Check this out www.apscroatia.com/index.php?ln=2&id=0&p_flag=1&general_location=5&PID=115Try finding a similar house in Italy 30 min from the sea for 87 000 euro. That company has some of the best prices for agencies in Croatia. The news paper today had a report on real estate and said prices had gone up 15% since last year. Apparently it's cheaper per square mtr to build a new house than to buy an existing apartment. If 1 person is interested in the figures of the article I'll post them. I suppose that information is based on the real estate conference just held in Zagreb. Ultimately though I would only recommend buying in Croatia if you like, and want to be in Croatia for some or all of your time. If you have no preference to where you want to be then it's best you find the cheapest palce that is suitable for your personal needs.
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Charles
Full Member
www.aplaceindalmatia.com
Posts: 75
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Post by Charles on Apr 3, 2006 22:42:04 GMT 1
At the risk of attracting the 'you're a foreigner running an agency so what would you know other than trying to talk the market up' comments I would say simply this. A number of our potential buyers come to us saying ' I don't want much, just a pretty old, stone house in an attractive location close to a beach with maybe 3 beds' Great we say, may we ask what your budget is. 'Well, I don't really want to spend more than €60-€70k' At this point the 'how quickly can you get them off the phone politely' technique kicks in. Too many people expect lazy returns as though somehow their interest merits the automatic right to large capital gains. I compare property to the dotcom bubble where reality diverged from valuation in the most high-profile way possible, but it didn't stop a lot of ordinary people losing money they could ill-afford to lose whilst the fat-cat sharks 'swam' all the way to the bank.
My point is (in case you were wondering) that any significant purchase, whether it be a primary residency, holiday home or even a car should be made on the back of an informed decision. If you like the latest Fiat or Rover despite crippling depreciation then so be it. If you want to buy in Croatia in the most popular areas then you have to be prepared for the fact that a lot of people will have got there before you and driven prices higher.
If you want decent investment returns, you have to work harder for those returns and take bigger risks. I have put my money where my mouth is by buying and renovating (expensively, aggravatingly, frustratingly slowly) in Kastela, then and probably now still unfashionable because a) they are between Split (2nd city, biggest commercial centre for 300km around, gateway to islands, recent recipient of motorway and hoped for, now confirmed, recipient of budget airlines) and it's airport, b) the riva, or waterfront, NEVER fails to attract the 'I never knew it was so nice' comments and c) prices for pretty, old stone houses were amongst the lowest we could find in this part of Croatia d) this being caused by the old communist industrial complexes at one of the bay, now being cleaned and closed down.
We've gambled, worked very hard and, I believe, deserve every kuna of profit that we may make (though it's our family home so we don't intend to try to realise it for several years) and for the money we've spent we could have bought a pretty decent home in many more established markets but without the upside in my opinion. The combination of wanting to enjoy Croatia, seeking a better balance in life, trying something new and entrepreneurial as well as hoping to make some money is my 'purchase rationale' and it's not entirely dependent on any one factor.
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Post by lojalnost on Apr 3, 2006 23:08:13 GMT 1
At the risk of attracting the 'you're a foreigner running an agency so what would you know other than trying to talk the market up' comments I would say simply this. A number of our potential buyers come to us saying ' I don't want much, just a pretty old, stone house in an attractive location close to a beach with maybe 3 beds' Great we say, may we ask what your budget is. 'Well, I don't really want to spend more than €60-€70k' At this point the 'how quickly can you get them off the phone politely' technique kicks in. Yeah but estate agents, come on, did anyone hear about the BBC investigation into a leading estate agent in London. If you did then you would never use one again. Its all about how to make a profit out of the buyer by using misinformation, misquotations, misrepresentation etc etc. As soon as you talk to an estate agent remember that they want a slice of any profit too. They are an AGENT and you're paying for their performance.
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Post by gmh on Apr 4, 2006 11:08:50 GMT 1
Lojalnost, I'm not an estate agent and I don't believe they're all the greedy crims you're trying to make them out to be. Sure some of them are, but most likely some people in what ever industry you are in are also. If you want someone to do some work for you, then you have to pay them for it. Everyone has the choice to do it themselves or pay someone else to do it. Simple.
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Charles
Full Member
www.aplaceindalmatia.com
Posts: 75
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Post by Charles on Apr 4, 2006 11:34:58 GMT 1
Bezbrizan - you beat me to it! Obviously I agree - I have no problem being criticised for performing a poor service but I believe the service we offer is both highly professional and actually pretty good value for money. If someone wants to get on a plane and search long and hard in a range of places to find suitable properties, then check at the casdastre and land registry that the ownership is clear, ensure that the all relevant permissions have been obtained, set-up a company if desired on their own, liasing with notaries, the commercial court, local banks and accountants, negotiate with owners seeing a foreign buyers interest, draw up multi-lingual contracts....the list goes on then, they are completely free and entitled to do so. No-one has any obligation to use my company's services and I will stand or fall on the quality and integrity of the service I provide. It's a consumer-driven free market with no monopolies or even oligopolies - as the market develops there's nowhere to hide if you offer inadequate service (comments on this forum about the performance and reputation of other agencies is a small example). This country, which I have committed to for amny positive reasons, has many, many bigger problems than a number of dishonest estate agents taking a slice of dodgy transactions.
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Post by londonhack on Apr 4, 2006 13:50:40 GMT 1
Thanks for your replies Bez and Charles. And thanks especially for that link, B - looks v promising. Despite my rantings, i haven't written off croatia - i'm coming back mid may to look at properties (so feel free to contact me estate agents) because I did fall in love with the place when I visited in sept. Also planning a trip to Split and the islands in summer. re prices I am buying with a friend and if we could get something decent for E 150-200K we would be very happy - house with a sea view (inland or near coast) ideally stone, with terrace and big garden. Does anyone have any info on Slovenia? Are prices cheaper there?
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Post by gmh on Apr 4, 2006 14:15:11 GMT 1
Don't get us started with Slovenia now.
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Post by londonhack on Apr 4, 2006 15:16:13 GMT 1
Bez - at the risk of being a pain in the a*se, what's the problem with Slovenia?
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Post by gmh on Apr 4, 2006 15:20:55 GMT 1
I have no problem with it. Very pretty country, but the coastline is small and over crowded. It's just that when ever it gets mentioned here the hard core nationalists start a bit of Slovenia bashing. Their national bank owes a lot of money to Croatian people that they kept after the break up of Yugoslavia and they're constantly stealing fish from croatian waters, and and and.. That stuffs more or less true but you get sick of hearing it.
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Post by Ribaric on Apr 4, 2006 16:53:05 GMT 1
Slo doesn't have much coastline so, what there is, is over-subscribed and expensive. IMO, it's not worth considering unless you have other reasons to reside in Slo.
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