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Post by firefly on Apr 4, 2007 11:27:55 GMT 1
Croatia was value for money just after the war. The laws of supply and demand in certain places have caused the prices to rocket. It is too late joining ther party now looking for bargains, even though they can still be found in some places. Zagreb is the best place to buy if you're looking for year round rental returns. As the EU membership is approaching the prices will react accordingly. One thing is sure, I'd be more confident putting my money in Croatian market right now than anywhere else.  |
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Post by architect on Apr 4, 2007 13:55:42 GMT 1
An example....
If a property in london didn't sell within a few weeks at or above the asking price then you could safely assume it was being at a price the market wouldn't bear and it would be reduced - that's a mature market working properly.
If a property in croatia didn't sell within say several months or years the reaction of the seller would be to increase it's price - that behavior characterises the less than mature croatian market.
You can compare the relative merits of buying almost any where but it remains a constant that if asking are not being achieved then there's some thing wrong some where.
Are any of you guys advertising Cro property in the UK. If so i'd like to know where so i can try it too...thanks.
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Post by Carol on Apr 4, 2007 14:03:37 GMT 1
look on primelocation, findaproperty, rightmove for a start. Also Croatian agencies at the exhibitions... i think a place in the sun at London Excel was either last weekend or this one coming.
the market here is immature which can be frustrating for all concerned but it does not dimish the product to valueless...
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Post by architect on Apr 4, 2007 16:56:32 GMT 1
not suggesting for a minute the product is worthless just that the market or rather the sellers seem to defy logic some times...that's all.
re the advertising you can't sell as an individual on the sites you mentioned and i don't really need an agent just advertising medium that will get some exposure for a foreign property...?
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Post by firefly on Apr 4, 2007 21:15:59 GMT 1
I have come across a Skyscrapercity thread on Bulgarian Black Sea coast. I find it depressing, but obviously those who've already invested wouldn't agree with me: www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=399359Croatia, with all its failings still gets my vote over Spain or Bulgaria. |
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Post by irac on Apr 5, 2007 15:04:49 GMT 1
At a conference the 15th-17th of February the HNB announced that there was a concern with the number of loans taken by domestic lenders that have now defaulted. Almost 3/4's of the money was for property/assets, with 40% of this amount on fixed property. The deputy governor spoke of a deep cncern that a number of the loans were taken to build small apartment blocks of 4-8units and that various banks (the best of all is Jadranska) have repossess an increasing number of buildings that have been unsold.
An example was given of a 6unit build just north of Dubrovnik. The hipoteka amount was 200,000€ and the lender, Zagrebacka, repossessed it all. The builders had a price €2,750-3,000 per m2, the bank resold it to a single investor (who turned out to be a sub-company of Atlas) for 265,000€, who promptly resold the units on for €2,000 per m2. The HNB valued the build costs at a maximum of 650€ per m2.
Until the central government step in and enforce laws, publish local prices (available at local opcine) and agents enforce same, then the country will continue to suffer financial decay.
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Post by sunnyperthcroat on Apr 6, 2007 14:37:48 GMT 1
Hi Guys,
First of all, i must say what a great site !
I stumbled across it whilst doing some reseach on pokrovnik (proposed site for airport between sibenik & drnis ). I am not sure how solid the information is but my mum,who is now in her late 50's, tells me that there was talk of it when she was a teenager.
I plan to form a company with some other croatian friends should my domovnica not come thru in time, but we plan to buy some properties in Dalmacija.
Reading thru the posts, I noticed a common theme about how most felt the market was overpriced, or moreso , the sellers were becoming too greedy. I can't help but laugh at that, because that is my daily struggle dealing with italians,croatians, turkish, indians and asians, as a real estate agent here in Western Australia.
As i have not fully grasped the legalities of purchasing there are some questions that i would like answered.
1. how do you get your hands on recent sales evidence ?
2. when you say the agent and the seller get greedy, in anyone's experience, if you have been successful in securing a property at a realistic price, what was the property advertised at and what was the eventual selling price ? I am trying to get an idea of what sort of buffer sellers are putting on the price.
Perhaps , the only other question i have is, apart from the obvious , that once Croatia becomes part of the EU, many predict the prices to increase, are there any other indicators that suggest the market will remain strong. I may be ignorant, but in terms of the Dalmacija market, the number one industry would be tourism & shipping ? Does anyone see there being a further catalyst to the Dalmacian region remaining a strong real estate market once the fad of going to Croatia for a holiday dies off for the local european neighbours ?
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Post by irac on Apr 6, 2007 16:45:18 GMT 1
sunnyperth, Pokrovnik was a dram that has always been there, and should have been realised over the mistakes in Split (ecological - noise and waste pollution), Dubrovnik (no room for expansion and weather constraints) and Zadar (weather and position); but the last effort to revive it, 1995, was a poor comparison of those from the 60's when it was to be the Dalmatian hub airport. It won't go ahead unless a massively wealthy investor takes it on and even then Drnis and Sibenik both hold control as the concession land is divided.
Prices will taper towards EU integration as a lot of locals expected 2004 to be the year, then 2006 and 2007 (as promised by Mr. Sanader) now 2009 is on the cards and prices are geared towards this, Dalmatian was poor in returning last summer as a tourist spot due to a numebr of factors, the World Cup being the least of them, but also that it is as cheap to cly from Germany to the Dominican Republic, stay in a top 4 star resort and enjoy pleasures unavailable here (a sandy beach, oh god what I'd give for a Ballinesker here!).
You have called it right in recognising the fad, but on hopes that in 10-15 years the backpackers who have been passing through in the last few years will return with families and more money to spread around!
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Post by Carol on Apr 6, 2007 17:14:31 GMT 1
1. how do you get your hands on recent sales evidence ?
2. when you say the agent and the seller get greedy, in anyone's experience, if you have been successful in securing a property at a realistic price, what was the property advertised at and what was the eventual selling price ? I am trying to get an idea of what sort of buffer sellers are putting on the price.
answer:
1. Open a real estate agency, be located here in Dalmatia on the ground and listen and watch. Otherwise I don't know.
2. Sellers tend not to put flexibility into their prices.. if they say they want €200k they really mean it to the last cent. However agents do in two ways: some add to the price hoping to make a profit for themselves and others advertise a lower price either because they've got the price which is years out of date (things can take a long time to sell) or because they've stolen the details from another agents website and they are using the property as bait to lure customers ot their own site.
Not helpful?? Well at least i've saved you about six months of living expenses that it took me to figure that out!
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Post by irac on Apr 8, 2007 10:32:58 GMT 1
Carol you forgot to mention the sleepless nights, stress, falling over your jaw with the stunning porkiesyou are told and your forehead hurting from smacking it against walls trying to get people to listen to reason, oh wait, it's not just property, sorry :-)
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Post by Carol on Apr 8, 2007 16:28:55 GMT 1
porkies... my two favourites 1. when i was refusing to sell agricultural land on hvar for which the estate agent (NB not the vendor) wanted me to sell for €50/m2 as opposed to €5/m2 which was is its true value. agent says to me but this land gets lots of sunshine so of course its worth 50.
2. developer of apartments on ciovo told me that prices on ciovo will soon rocket again becuase not only will bridge from trogir be built soon but also split ferry port is to close and all ferries to brac, hvar, vis etc will soon leave direct from Ciovo
3. sorry i know i said two but just thought of another favourite... everytime i visit a property away from the coast, the vendor always claims that a spur to the new motorway is due to be built within 100m of the property.
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Post by sunnyperthcroat on Apr 9, 2007 14:12:37 GMT 1
Thanks irac ! All i know is that a hungarian consortium are looking at the idea but then I don't know how credible the information is. Carol.... there are so many questions that my point raises regarding sales evidence, but i do appreciate the agony you have saved me. I just don't know whether i want to open up a real estate agency in Dalmacija. i am still getting over the last dealing with a croatian  In the case that i owned a property, in croatia and i asked for an appraisal, would a real estate agent prepare a written appraisal showing current listings and recent sales ? If i had an agent take me to view, say 5 properties, and i liked the look of one of them, but i just wanted to make sure i was paying a reasonable price, would it be too much to ask the agent to supply evidence of similar type properties. i realise the systems are different in all parts of the world, but as i buyer i would expect it of the agent just in the same way i have to when i am trying to justify my sellers price. Just on the topic of pricing, unless the purchase is cash, how are the valuer's getting these deals to stick together if asking prices are over the top. Again, my understanding of lending policies in European is very minimal. |
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Post by irac on Apr 9, 2007 17:31:05 GMT 1
Are they supposed to be looking at Pokrovnik? Sounds like Carol's "roads all around" nightmare. What is lovely, not only in Dalmatia, but elsewhere along the coast - "it's a sure thing for tourists!" Now that the government have given lip service to "etno" tourism there is a complete dog's dinner being made of the situation. A colleague went out to some village in Lika last month, she wanted to pick up some land for Aussie based relatives (chances of them returning in 20years is zero but they wanted to be seen to do it). She saw a nice parcel or semi-dry land with shared road access about 10kms off the main road, they began looking for 20€ per m2 as it was "perfect for tourists to enjoy".
Prices in a lot of cases are over the top, when you're paying over 2,000 per m2 for an apartment with wet finger in the air to calculate rental income etc.
With Pokrovnik, it sounds like nonsense, plus the concession time is so short there'd be no money to be made back.
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Post by theoneandonly on Apr 27, 2007 15:47:29 GMT 1
Speaking of inflated prices, I saw a house (well, the walls had a good roof, but it needed everything inside) with a garden. The owner had said they wanted 140-150,000 euros for it, according to the neighbours. Quite a lot, I thought, until he gave it to an agent to sell for him. The price suddenly went up to 250,000!!!!! I guess they'll still be selling this in three years' time, by when it may well need a new roof, guttering, etc...
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Post by Carol on Apr 27, 2007 16:07:42 GMT 1
as an industry insider you need to knwo that these days its much more likely that its the vendor who is being unrealistic about the prices than the agent. Sure five years ago agents were marking up prices and pocketing the difference and even three eyars ago we were frequently offered being cut in on deals, but I haven't been offered anything like that at all for months now. These days its the vendor often taking advice form the local sage who marks up prices without even a glimmer of understanding of market economics.
Last week we had an offer on a house for 58000 to a young local couple who are just about to get married. Two days later, one hour before the buyers were due in our office with the deposit money in hand, the vendor came into the office quite embarrassed with her daughter in tow. The daughter informed us that the price was now 70000. When the young couple arrived an hour later, the girl was close to tears when we told her what had happened. She said they had been looking for ages and thought they had finally found somewhere they could afford.
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In the case that i owned a property, in croatia and i asked for an appraisal, would a real estate agent prepare a written appraisal showing current listings and recent sales ? If i had an agent take me to view, say 5 properties, and i liked the look of one of them, but i just wanted to make sure i was paying a reasonable price, would it be too much to ask the agent to supply evidence of similar type properties. i realise the systems are different in all parts of the world, but as i buyer i would expect it of the agent just in the same way i have to when i am trying to justify my sellers price.