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Post by mambo on Mar 31, 2008 15:00:18 GMT 1
Valiant,
I understand your point and as an employer I also know that I have to pay salaries, taxes etc, but the problem is that too many companies in this country are simply not trustworthy. Too many times people have paid upfront and found out that their money was gone.
Even though I also run a risk when we deliver our goods 'on credit' or that I have to trust a client when he says he will pay immediately, I understand very well that people have lost faith in 'the word' of a company or other people.
We cannot blame our customers for having lost faith, we should blame the companies and people who still have this behavior of ripping people off and they are getting away with it.
The government could change this in a heartbeat if they would clean up the judicial system, but, for reasons only known to them, they refuse to pass the required laws.
Our only option is then to find solutions with the customers which are satisfactory for them as well as for us. The moment you are willing to understand their dilemma you have already covered half the distance.
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Post by krkisland on Mar 31, 2008 17:33:04 GMT 1
They are asking for 20% up front to cover materials and then staggered payments according to the work they complete. They have said they wont run off with the 20% as this is a tiny amount compared to the overall cost. This payment is meant to cover concrete, windows, doors, materials for them to start the project. Im not sure if 20% is the norm or whether I should press for lower.
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Post by darcy on Apr 1, 2008 9:29:04 GMT 1
20% is not a tiny amount, it is 20%.
In Croatia I prefer to pay more and have a full control + you can't play hard if it gets tough, but that is all personal preference.
Good luck!
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Post by mambo on Apr 1, 2008 10:42:53 GMT 1
I agree with Darcy, once they have your money you have given them control over the project and they will simply laugh at you if you have complaints about the job they are doing. Here in Croatia people/companies will not do anything unless you owe them money. Once they have your money any warranty or follow up goes out of the window.
And nowadays I am in a state where I will also tell them this straight in their face. Croatians understand only one language and that is 'strong' language. Let them know that you cannot be fooled around, for if you don't they will have a field day with you.
Also, if the company cannot pay the 20 % themselves then I would not do business with them at all. It probably means they have financial problems (cash flow), which is also quite common here.
Either pay for the material yourself, but have the invoice also on your name, so they can never touch it anymore or simply tell them you will pay once the material is used, in a correct way I must add.
You could suggest to park the money on an escrow account or at a notary, that way you are safe.
One item I would also not be too happy about is that the architect, builder and supervisor are one and the same. You may want to get a third, independent, person in there to check the quality of the work.
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Post by krkisland on Apr 2, 2008 18:05:49 GMT 1
Are you saying that the company should invest their own money in the materials before payment etc. Im sure even in the UK you would have to put down some form of down payment for a construction job.
I can say that the team have started the work already without me paying anything so far and arent hassling me for money. I hate to assume that every workman in croatia is a crook but this forum seems to reflect this and I want to protect my investment.. Maybe there are some good guys out there who knows? Do honest people exist in croatia?
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Post by justapixel on Apr 2, 2008 18:30:28 GMT 1
Maybe there are some good guys out there who knows? Do honest people exist in croatia? If the answer is "no", does that make me and everyone I know - a crook? . |
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Post by krkisland on Apr 2, 2008 18:36:11 GMT 1
Exactly... There are good honest people out there so perhaps sometimes we are being too hard on them. Of course there are bad apples but there are bad tradesmen (i.e COWBOYS) in every country.
I have to say Ive met a lot of helpful/pleasant Croatian people and Ive drank home made wine from so many houses I lose count. Sometimes I think the bad apples can taint the good apples..
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Post by mambo on Apr 2, 2008 18:58:52 GMT 1
krkisland, There are of course also 'good' companies out there. My apologies if you have the impression that in Croatia we only have crooks and frauds. I know a couple of companies that a fully trustworthy, deliver good quality and also understand what service means. Problem is that you will not be able to figure out who is good and who is bad when you meet them first time. Until you have worked with them you won't know who you can trust and even then you sometimes run into surprises. For a couple of years we used to have our maintenance done by a company from Rijeka. They did a good job, showed up when we needed them, but 2 years ago we had a much larger job to do and the company demanded to be paid 80 % up front. Since I knew them and since it was urgent I paid them................that was the start of all the trouble. All of a sudden they did not have time, had more urgent things to do and after dragging their feet for 1 month I had to fly in a technician from Holland. The company from Rijeka never finished the job (they did not even bother to show up when the guy from Holland showed up) and although I have written letters, went to their office, called them numerous times, they keep dragging their feet and claim they did exactly what I ordered. The fact that I had to hire someone else does not bother them, I should have waited according to them. It was their money and that is how it stayed. Talking to a lawyer did not help either, she told me that it would turn into a 'yes and no-game', which I would surely loose as a foreigner. After this incident I made up my mind and I will never ever pay anyone up front again, not even the companies that I consider 'trustworthy'. I learned my lesson the hard way, but at least I learned it.
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Post by krkisland on Apr 2, 2008 19:12:36 GMT 1
Yes I think its all about managing risk. I will be carefully monitoring every step of the project and only paying in small stages as they complete each part of the project.
I will most definitely not be paying large chunks up front. As you say without having previous experience with this company its very difficult to know for sure whether they are trustworthy until the job has been completed. The situation you mention is something I want to avoid.... :-)
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Post by Carol on Apr 2, 2008 19:18:45 GMT 1
Mambo - at least your lawyer gave you good advice. She could have said that you had a good case and you'd have found out later that you didn't, after spending a lot of money on legal fees.
We had similar problems when renovating our place. Some tradesmen wanted payment up front. We did what they asked and some delivered the service as promised, others abused us for even daring to ask them to do the work and we are still waiting two years later. You just can't tell, so the only way is to limit your downside risk.
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Post by valiant on Apr 2, 2008 20:31:47 GMT 1
croats are "prokleti" they are greed scum bags, ruining eachothers lives, contratcs mean nothing, my advice is that we all leave this country and these people to destroy themselves. i just got some news now on the phone, and i just cant believe it, these people are totaly screwed up to the max. sorry im generalising here, not all croats are bad. there are good croats too.
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Post by Estelle on Apr 3, 2008 0:09:19 GMT 1
After you then.....
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Post by darcy on Apr 3, 2008 8:25:57 GMT 1
Are you saying that the company should invest their own money in the materials before payment etc. Im sure even in the UK you would have to put down some form of down payment for a construction job. I can say that the team have started the work already without me paying anything so far and arent hassling me for money. I hate to assume that every workman in croatia is a crook but this forum seems to reflect this and I want to protect my investment.. Maybe there are some good guys out there who knows? Do honest people exist in croatia? Sure, company should invest their own money to get at least first part of the project thru. If not, then you are dealing with a very small business not capable of doing a big job and you should consider paying them wages instead of paying them to do the job (fixed price or time and material, depends). If you do it in the UK and try to build a house it is very likely no deposit will be required. However, you are not in the UK and that is the reason I suggest you to play safe. If you pay the deposit and you end up in any dispute, it is very unlikely you will see the deposit back. My rule is no deposit and only fixed price contract (unless I am doing project management), in Croatia or at home. |
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Post by Carol on Apr 3, 2008 12:59:32 GMT 1
Its a good rule darcy, but it is not fair on the contractor! So what if they are not rich? It doesn't mean they won't do a fair job? (In fact it probably means they are more likely to be honest because you might question how a rich contractor made his money!).
Think from the builder's side. He could spend his money finding and ordering the materials. Then use his time to build with them and when he has done everything that was agreed, the client could say "i don't want to /cannot pay". What should the builder do then? Take the materials back, scrape the paint off them and try to get the shop to take it back??
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Post by krkisland on Apr 3, 2008 15:05:49 GMT 1
Carol, You hit the nail on the head.
I cant see any builder investing hundreds of pounds in ordering double glazed windows, window shutters, granite, balcony surrounds and to install them all up front. What if the client turned around and said sorry I cant pay you now. The contractor has paid all his builders and hundreds of pounds on materials from his suppliers. And being Croatia it appears he cant really sue the client either. Neither the builder or the client is safe considering the Croatian legal system.
In my case they have already started work and arent asking for any cash which could be positive. I suspect they will need some however when it comes to materials.
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