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Post by liam stephenson on Apr 6, 2004 14:10:13 GMT 1
why do you denounce croatia? why are you even talking about croatia? are you jelaous that croatia has something that serbia always wanted? oh and by the way, the Serbian population was not expelled from Croatia, but chose to leave the country on the recommendation of their own political and military leadership.
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Post by MBJ on Apr 13, 2004 11:45:05 GMT 1
Liam, as a Serb from Croatia I felt I need to reply to you and put you straight!
You have NO IDEA how and why half a milion Serbs left Croatia in August 1995.
Have you been there at the time? Have you witnessed what was going on? Or have you sat comfortably in some sofa here in the UK and read it all in the papers? I feel sorry for the people like you that feel the need to comment on something they have no idea about.
I am not going to comment on what Serbs from Serbia want from Croatia, that does not interest me.
But I can tell you that, as a Serb from Croatia, all I wanted was to be able to have a normal childhood in the city I grew up in, I wanted to go to university I chose and get a job in a profession I studied for. All that was denied from me. And thousands others like me....
So, Mr Stephenson, next time you meet a foreigner here in the UK, ask yourself why has this person left their beautiful country and why is s/he trying to make a living here. Maybe because of people like you.... People that feel it is their right to poke their ignorant noses in other peoples' and countries' business....
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Post by croatian on Apr 15, 2004 8:47:39 GMT 1
Liam, as a Serb from Croatia I felt I need to reply to you and put you straight! You have NO IDEA how and why half a milion Serbs left Croatia in August 1995. Have you been there at the time? Have you witnessed what was going on? Or have you sat comfortably in some sofa here in the UK and read it all in the papers? I feel sorry for the people like you that feel the need to comment on something they have no idea about. I am not going to comment on what Serbs from Serbia want from Croatia, that does not interest me. But I can tell you that, as a Serb from Croatia, all I wanted was to be able to have a normal childhood in the city I grew up in, I wanted to go to university I chose and get a job in a profession I studied for. All that was denied from me. And thousands others like me.... So, Mr Stephenson, next time you meet a foreigner here in the UK, ask yourself why has this person left their beautiful country and why is s/he trying to make a living here. Maybe because of people like you.... People that feel it is their right to poke their ignorant noses in other peoples' and countries' business.... how do you know? did you read the croatian constitution of 1991 in which serbs got more minority rights according to all european standards? those, who call themselves serbs today in croatia started the aggression against what should be their homeland long before the croatian declaration of independence in order to becoming part of the greater serbia already drawn in nacertanje in the 1850s by garasanin. i have been to plitvice in late 1990 when serbs build up barricades on the streets and expelled until 1992 some 200000 croatians from there homeland where they have been living a millenium longer than any serb? then, in 1995 croatia reached its hand towards the so called rsk, offering them even own police forces - the serbs refused. when the oluja started on august 4th 1995, the croatian radio submitted a speech, in which all serb civilians were ordered to stay at home: "I call those who joined Serb paramilitary units on their own will or against it, to surrender their weapons to the Croat authorities, for they will be granted amnesty according to the Croat current laws. I call initiators of rebellion to realize that their attempts are useless and harmful for Serb community in Croatia should they continue their activities, and to surrender to the Croat authorities for they could be granted amnesty or tried for their acts. I call Croat citizens of Serb nationality who have not directly participated in the conflict to stay at their homes and meet Croat authorities without fear for their lives or property, for they would be guaranteed full citizen rights as well as local administration elections according to the Croat Constitution and Constitutional Law, observed by International observers." (http://www.veritas.org.yu/Publikacije/Oluja/Tekstovi/2e.htm) the same day the local serb authorities ordered the evacuation of the so called krajina: (http://www.veritas.org.yu/Publikacije/Oluja/Tekstovi/3e.htm). no serbs were expelled by any croatians as it was the first day of the action. for the fact that you as a croatian serb has to deal by now with predjudices and hatret among the croatian population - not the governing institution, you must take in consideration what the croatian people suffered under serb occupation and terror as well as from 1991-1995 - as in the past. as many croatians still remembered how they were treated after ww2 being marked as "ustasa", they might make the serbs feel the same for their atrocities now. however in contrast to many serbs, croatia has accepted its past which has some dark periods as well as few days of glory. now it is up to the serbs to realise they have had similar events in their past and ask for forgiving and a new beginning.
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Post by M on Apr 15, 2004 12:36:42 GMT 1
Serbs in Croatia may have minority rights on paper but it's a completely different story in practice. Croatian government may be offering possibility for return of those Serbs who left in the 1990s, but many of those who have returned are experiencing extreme difficulties, abuse, bullying and so on (I know that first hand). As for those Serbs who have stayed, and accepted Croatia as their country after it gained the independence from Yugoslavia, please red the following story (Denis Lalic-index.hr), one of thousands of examples how Croatia treats them in return:
"Danas se na naslovnici pojavio drugi klinac. I on ima genetskih problema. Ali ne radi se o bolesti. Mislim, barem u ostalim zemljama to nije bolest. U Hrvatskoj nekad je. Recimo, kad se èelni ljudi HVIDR-e krenu baviti genetikom. Onda doðe do toga da se klincu zabrani nastup na nogometnom turniru jer je Srbin. To se dogodilo u Vukovarsko-srijemskoj županiji.
Èelnik HVIDR-e je to objasnio izjavom tipiènom za takve tipove: "Turnir nosi ime poginulog hrvatskog branitelja i na njemu neæe nastupiti Srbi." To što klinac o kojem se radi, kad je ovaj poginuo, vjerojatno nije bio ni roðen, tipovima iz HVIDR-e ne znaèi ništa. To, jebiga, za njih nije argument. Radi se o genetici. I sad, da mali prospe prièu kako je ugrožen, da li bi je itko mogao osporiti? Jer kad si u tim godinama i kad ti netko zabrani nastup na nogometnom turniru za kojeg se ovaj vjerojatno spremao zadnjih mjesec dana, kojeg je nestrpljivo èekao, koji je za njega vjerojatno jedan od dogaðaja godine, onda ti to sruši svijet.
Mislim, muška populacijo èitatelja, sjetite se sebe s deset godina i školskih nogometnih turnira i kako ste se osjeæali u tim trenucima. A sad se sjetite svih onih klinaca koji nisu mogli igrali jer su bili debeli, smotani, spori. Ili se sjetite sebe ako ste bili jedan od njih. Pa sad promozgajte malo i o tom klincu i njegovom dolasku kuæi nakon što je dežurni HVIDR-in struènjak za genetiku odluèio da "nije sposoban" za nastup na turniru. Pa æe i on pitat mamu ili tatu "Što nije u redu sa mnom?"
Mislim, ako imate klinca ili mlaðeg brata ili sestru, zamislite odgajanje u kojem mu morate reæi: "Srbin si, sine i zato ne smiješ igrat nogomet s ostalim klincima!"
A sad idemo malo predviðati što æe raditi takvi klinci kad veæ ne mogu igrati na nogometnom turniru. Poèet æe igrati sami. U jednom kvartu æe nogomet igrati srpski, u drugom hrvatski klinci. A kad se, ako im to roditelji dopuste, zajedno naðu i odigraju jedni protiv drugih, onda æe na ponos svojih staraca, kako to naši sportski komentatori vole reæi "ginuti na terenu". O navijanju i popratnim stavrima da ne prièam.
Vratimo se sad HVIDR-inim proizvoðaèima frustracije kod djece. Ako postoji nešto što takve tipove iritira više od Srba, to su partizani, stare komunjare, kako oni to vole reæi. Pa æemo se, kad ih veæ spominjemo, sjetiti kraja drugog svjetskog rata i tih istih tipova koji su nakon njega postali nedodirljive svete krave s ogromnim boraèkim i inim penzijama. Vidite neku sliènost? Oni su, osim što su sve do kraja osamdesetih nedužno TV-gledateljstvo davili ratnim dokumentarcima trudeæi se mladim generacijama "usaditi tekovine revolucije", nakon rata krojili državnu politiku. Vidi, opet sliènost.
Jedan od rezulatat tog krojenja bilo je i to da su formulari koji su se predavali kod traženje zaposlenja sve do osamdesetih sadržavali i pitanje o ulozi nekog od bliže ili daljnje rodbine u ratu na strani okupatora ili domaæih izdajnika. Da li bi taj dobio posao, procijenite sami. Tako je nastao velik dio naše dijaspore koja više od ièeg mrzi "komunjare" i sve što oni oznaèavaju.
Retorièko pitanje: "Koga æe mrziti mali Srbin?" Što zapravo želim reæi? Dok spomenuti èelnik HVIDR-e bude negdje preslušavao novi Thompsonov CD i okidao na dio: .ali ne do Bog, pa nas budu trebali, opet æe se crna magla spustiti. mali Srbin æe odrastati mrzeæi sve što je hrvatsko i njega kao nosioca cijelog tog kvazi-cro-roduljublja. Kvazi zato što ne dopušta patriotizam bez mržnje zbog èega se, opet uz dužno poštovanje, serem na njega.
Kako pomoæi tom djeèaku? Što, dakle, kao pojedinac možeš napraviti? Otiæ tamo i organizirati nekakav prosvjed i doživjeti kamenovanje. Otiæ do HVIDR-inog struènjaka za genetiku i upitat ga "Èekaj, jebote, jesi ti normalan?" i popit batine od njega i još par kompanjona. Otiæ tamo i igrati nogomet s klincem, ali tad bi te i on èudno gledao. Možeš samo napisati nešto o tome i brijati da si, eto, kao, napravio nešto, a zapravo si napravio kurac.
Isto kao i vi, gospodo roditelji ostalih uèenika koji ste odluèili da je bolje "ne stršat". Uz dužno poštovanje, i vas nabijem na kurac!
PA PIÈKA MU MATERINA, RADI SE O KLINCU KOJI ŽELI IGRATI NOGOMET!!!!!!!!!! "
The story is a bit vulgar in parts but proves my point why Serbs have been leaving Croatia since it's independence and why they will continue to do so. Because they do not have the same rights as the Croatian citizens! So, eventualy, Croats will get what they wanted all along - ehnically clean Croatia.
Croatia is still nowhere near any proper democracy, and - however hard it tries to present itself as a democratic country - examples as the one above show that it's still failing misserably!
I'd love to return one day and go back to living in my beautiful city on the Adriatic coast, I'd love to use the skills and the experience I gained here for the benefit of Croatia - the country I grew up in.
But until that country is ready to accept me and make me feel safe and equal member of it's society - I'm staying put! And it may take a few years still....
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Post by Ivy on Apr 15, 2004 12:47:12 GMT 1
M:
How would you explain the fact that the Croats are leaving the country too before and after its independance.
I believe neither of us would like to see Tito's times back, after whose war one worked the whole day for a peace of bread, a slice of ham, or a pack of cigarettes.
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Post by croatian on Apr 15, 2004 13:14:00 GMT 1
actually the given text does not say anything about minority rights granted by the government or democracy in croatia. hvidr is a non-government organisation. so it is up to them whether they want to accept serbs or not. nobody can force any person to love or respect those who burned their houses and churches, took their land and discriminated them for almost 80 years. so what should you expect of the croats. as i said it is up to you to show to the croatian people that you are willing to be supportive and integer citizens of croatia. everything else will follow soon. but you cannot raise your voice for the split of croatia on the one hand and seek for respect on the other hand.
by the way, you may be happy that serbs in croatia do not have the same status as the native croatian population in eastern srijem. until recently the existence of croats was merely denied. the use of croatian language and croatian schools were forbidden. still if a croatian priest retires it is not allowed to replace him with another from croatia. you should keep that in mind.
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Post by M on Apr 15, 2004 13:55:05 GMT 1
Ivy,
I agree with your comments that neither of us would like the Tito's era of comunism to return. I'm all for capitalism rather than comunism.
Croatian,
It's not the government I'm worried about in case of eventual return - it's the ordinary people. There is not much point in government preaching democracy if the people do not support it. And it will take generations for Croats (as well as Serbs and the other ex Yu nations) to become democratic.
As for me needing to show to the Croatian people that I am willing to work with them and integrate into the society, isn't the fact that some Serbs are returning to their burnet down homes and trying to make a living from a scratch a proof enough that we want to give it a go? The problem is a response of the Croats - open bullying, and making sure those Serbs do not feel welcome in the slightest (see above example again).
You are saying that Serbs from croatia discriminated against Croats for 80 years. How? In the same way that Hercegovci & Dalmatinci (both Croats) are now taking over all the managing positions in most companies, and employing their own regardless of their qualifications/work experience? The problem here now, as well as throughout those 80 years you mention, is a lack of democracy and nothing else.
And Croats supposedly fought against comunism and for democracy. Right!
My very good Croatian friend returned home (after Living in the UK for 3 years) a couple of months ago and told me: "Stop dreaming about Croatia. It's the most undemocratic country in Europe. Without connections you are nothing. Never mind your London degree, never mind your experience.Plus when someone works out that you are a Serb-forget it!"
So, you guys must first become democratic towards each other within the country. Than maybe in a few generations you will be able to re-integrate Serbs into your society... and maybe one day move a bit closer to the democratic world of Europe.
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Post by Ivy on Apr 15, 2004 14:08:22 GMT 1
Glad that we share at least one point, M (Tito's times). let me add that having a sudden recourse to putting everyone -- the Serbs & the Croats -- in the same bag can only cloud the truth.
I believe that both sides have certain problems, yet much different cultural and political backgrounds, which didn't allow for full integration of the 'newcommers' from Serbia.
The origin of those problems was in the habits of communism supported by or supportive to the idea of the greater Serbia.
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Post by M on Apr 15, 2004 14:19:06 GMT 1
Politicaly - yes, differences are obvious. I hope you understand that I do not support Serbia in any way. I was born on Croatian land and never wanted to be part of any Greater Serbia. I just wanted to be accepted in Croatia as an equal, which I was, but only till 1991. Culturally - I don't really think the two are so different, except maybe for different tastes in music (i.e. centuries of influence of the west in Croatia and of the east in Serbia). After all everyone loves a good sarma, pork roast or cevapcici...
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Post by croatian on Apr 15, 2004 14:21:57 GMT 1
i completely agree with you m.
the only difference is that we have different opinions of what democracy is. when i am refused to be served in a café because of my serbian descend or refused to enter a discotheque or refused a job at a privately owned company, it the private decision of the owners and has nothing to to with democracy or anything else. however, issues on democracy and minority rights can only be settled between state institutions and the people and that is the huge difference inbetween the old and todays yugoslavia and croatia. in yugoslavia suppression originated from state institutions in croatia such institutions grant minority rights. no serb will be refused to get state benefits or the right to vote. that is the difference. if you want to be accepted by the people you have to work for it. the frame is set - everybody in croatia is given the same chances by the state - it is now up to you to fill it. only you can change the mind of the croatian people on your own by convincing each of them that you changed since 1995.
this has nothing to do with democracy or minority rights - it's on a personal level.
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Post by Ivy on Apr 15, 2004 14:30:10 GMT 1
M, you have an opportunity to test the standards of the 'democratic world of Europe' against Croatian and see how quickly you'll be accepted by that one. Let us know.
Ps. I'm almost a vegetarian, though not a declared one. Have you any other argument for common cause?
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Post by M on Apr 15, 2004 14:43:29 GMT 1
Croatian,
What good are those minority rights on paper if they are not put into practice? It's up to each end every one of us to put that democracy on paper into practice. The question is are Croats democratic in practice? I think not yet, not for a long while.
You say it's up to us Croatian Serbs to prove ourselves and, to the certain extent, I can see your point. But what about those that tried, those that returned home and were than killed by their neighbours overninght i.e. in the villages around Ogulin? They tried and paid with their lives. And were the killers prosecuted? No, they were not.
So, Croatian legal system, Croatian nation and those Serbs that want to return to their homeland all have a very long way to go....................
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Post by M on Apr 15, 2004 14:56:05 GMT 1
Ivy,
I have never, in all these years spent in the UK, felt that I was mistreated on the grounds of being foreign.
I have started by doing all sorts of jobs while improving my english. I have studied for a degree of my choice and, after graduating, got a job in my profession simply by sending of my CV to numerous companies and replying to the adverts in the papers. No connections, no corruption needed.... You may say that I was lucky, but I see it as taking oportunities that were presented to me.
So, in my view, it works pretty well here. What do you say?
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Post by croatian on Apr 15, 2004 17:34:04 GMT 1
Croatian, What good are those minority rights on paper if they are not put into practice? It's up to each end every one of us to put that democracy on paper into practice. The question is are Croats democratic in practice? I think not yet, not for a long while. You say it's up to us Croatian Serbs to prove ourselves and, to the certain extent, I can see your point. But what about those that tried, those that returned home and were than killed by their neighbours overninght i.e. in the villages around Ogulin? They tried and paid with their lives. And were the killers prosecuted? No, they were not. So, Croatian legal system, Croatian nation and those Serbs that want to return to their homeland all have a very long way to go.................... i could state bomb attacs against croatian returnees in vukovar against this, but it is not the point. maybe in this special event the croatian legal system failed. such a failure of the legal system might happen in any other country of the world, too and has nothing to do with democracy and minority rights the point is that no state institution of croatia attacs any serb or discriminates him because of his origin. if there are any excesses, it was the population. up to some extend it is their own decision whether how they treat their serbian neighbours in their everyday life. of course any crime has to be persecuted, but in this context noone deserves special treatment. the republic of croatia obeys its own laws concerning minority rights and democracy. the people of croatia participates in free elections which is the base of all democracies. croatia is reforming its legal system and administration to an efficient one. but there should not be any law telling me as a reasonable free citizen, who i have to employ or who has served in a private restaurant or shop because it is not a human right. this freedom to choose is what makes croatia a free democracy.
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Post by Ivy on Apr 16, 2004 0:01:02 GMT 1
To answer your question, M, I think that there are the opportunities everywhere; we defer just in our personal inclination and ability to see them and use them.
As long as I don't put the Croat/Serb/Yugoslav in my applications/CVs Ii believe to have run equal chances as others here. And you? Are you applying as a Serb or a British?
In the UK you meet with a strong system and you don't attempt to challenge it, as Croatian one; so you adopt a freindly approach and tolerate all that you can; Croatia is a young democracy, and no one is patient with her.
As a Croat, I could have raised the same complaints and demands like you, but I believe to understand where the problems originated from, unlike you. Love and friendships are a kind of mutual affair; what you give is what you get back. But the Serbs managed to be granted amnesty and are asking to be given privileges as before 1991; the Croats still keep pretty quiet about their rights and how they think they should be treated and the injustices corrected. Therefore some conflicst naturally arise.
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