Seperation of Serbia

[Aljosa]

will Vojvodina, Kosovo and Montengro ever seperate from Serbia ? What are the implications?

[cronautic dot com]

as serbs make up the majority in vojvodina after 80 years of colonisation and ethnic cleansing there is little chance for vojvodina's independence.
in my opinion the kosovo will be divided between albania and serbien within the next 5 years.
it was said in the media that monte negro is scheduled to declare independence in 2005. however this will spread new conflicts as during the last century many serbs settled in the former croatian boka kotorska area (e.g. herceg novi) and make up almost 30% of the montenegrin population. furthermore serbia would lose its last access to the adriatic.

[Aljosa]

Very interesting thought

Where did you hear that Montenegro would gain independance in 2005?

[Graham - Bosmere]

I think you will find that the idea comes from the fact that Serbia and Montenegro have agreed that the first time that there can be a vote on seperation would be 3 years after the union. This would equate to 2005. however the result of any vote in Montenegro is far from being a foregone conclusion. There have been problems in getting people to vote in elections so I am not sure if sufficient numbers would vote in any referendum for it to be valid.

[Janet]

(Which is usually got around by lowering the minimum voting threshold, as they did at the general elections, I seem to remember? Or was that someother country I'm thinking of?)

[Graham - Bosmere]

I just checked and it looks like 2006 before a referendum can take place as the treaty was not ratified until Feb 2003. Yes the voting threshold was reduced for elections in Montenegro and also in Serbia but I cant remember if it was for the presidential or parliamentary elections. Old age is making me forgetfull

[Josh]

Cronautic, I am impressed with your take on Serbia and Montenegro. Is this a result of some serious studying or you just read all that rubbish in some ‘Young Ustasha’ pamphlet? And thank God that colonisation and ethnic cleansings in Croatia were so thorough and successful that no one is even contemplating a question “Will Baranja, Istria and Kninska Krajina ever seperate from Croatia? What are the implications?” Right?

In answer to Aljosa’s question I can say that the implications of policies that make such a question even possible are that a substantial region of Balkans will be turned into new Middle East with ever-present crisis and low-intensity wars. Serbia will be at the centre of this and although I can understand why many Croats will find pleasure in Serbia’s misery I don’t understand how they think this would benefit Croatia? Surely, having such instability in the immediate neighbourhood can’t be good for Croatia’s economy. Or shall we just feast on a sense of ‘revenge’ even if our stomachs are rumbling?

Josh

[cronautic dot com]

how do you think will safety reached in the region if serbia will still be a conflict zone as long as almost homogene minorities such as in the kosovo strive for independence?
serbia has to settle the things in kosovo as well as in all the other regions. if not, the serbian misery will just be prolonged.

ps: have a look at the actual census in vojvodina and you will find out that the croatian population went down almost by half during the last 15 years even though there has not been any conflict. in my opinion it is quite unfair that you try to justify one evil with another. anyway your quote is in the wrong thread as thequestion was, what we assume to happe with these serbian regions.

[Josh]

Cronautic,

Are you suggesting that stability in the Balkans will be reached only when Serbia gives up part of her ancient land, which also happens to be the cradle of her statehood and national identity and where the formal seat of her church is? And that Croatia should have done the same when it lost control of the Knin Krajina region, the cradle of her statehood? That Croatia should have just given up? Or you supported the Operation Storm and expulsion of those who didn’t recognise new Independent Croatia as their state?

I have tried to answer Aljosa’s question the best I could, actually. Maybe you should read my post once again. I don’t see him asking any questions about ‘ethnic cleansing in Vojvodina and Boka Kotorska', though, but you obliged nonetheless. And to my great disappointment that is, since I read many of your posts on the Forum and thought you were clever and educated person. You could still be clever and educated but also maliciously misinformed.

I find it very bizarre that you have decided to mention Vojvodina and Boka Kotorska as examples of (Serbian?) ethnic cleansing. Maybe you should look at your census figures again and check the actual ethnic make-up of those regions. Serbia and Montenegro have, despite being (rightly or wrongly) accused for all the evils in the former Yugoslavia, retained the highest proportion of ethnic minorities in the Balkans. (With the exception of Macedonia, which has sizable and ever growing Albanian minority.) Just look at the current ethnic make-up of Croatia, for example.

Maybe you are right that number of Croats living in Vojvodina has decreased in the past 15 years. However, your claim that this is a result of ethnic cleansing is complete rubbish. There has indeed been some violence against minorities in Vojvodina during the 90’s but this was never institutionalised and can’t be compared to what happened in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo (or even Slovenia).

You have also ignored the fact that most Croats in Serbia have taken the Croatian citizenship that was generously offered to anyone who can prove their Croatian heritage. Many people thought that working or studying in Croatia is better than living in Serbia, crippled by sanctions and political instability and took advantage of dual citizenship. Some young Croats from Vojvodina have also sought to escape national service by going to Croatia (and no one can blame them for that) while their families stayed in Serbia. It was similar with Hungarian minority. Is this ethnical cleansing?

Finally, you should also look at how many Serbs have left Serbia during the past 15 years in search of better life. So, by your terms, they were also ethnically cleansed. Serbs from Serbia ethnically cleansed by the Serbs! Or was it the war(s), sanctions, sense of isolation and degradation, lack of viable future?

Josh

[Nicola]

Could we set up a sub site to this (TRAVEL!!!)site?
Visit-Croatia's Political Rhetoric and Debate Forum?

[Graham - Bosmere]

It might be a good idea Nicola, especially as a lot of people blindly visit Croatia without having the faintest idea of the socio-economic problems. At least a discussion board on the subject would highlight the polarised views that some people have and it might even help to remove the blinkers of those who think that Croatia is some sort of paradise that will forever remain as it is.

[Nicola]

Only the very naive would believe any country is or will remain a paradise, nor is any country without socio- economic problems. I just hope some of the extremist (and often slightly aggressive) views voiced elsewhere on this website don't deter the more faint hearted from visiting the country - that would be a shame.

[Josh]

Well Nicola, you could become a moderator - I'm sure Anna can use some help. Than you can delete all the posts you don't find suitable for 'travel' forum. I can point you towards 'Gotovina' thread where you can find statements of racial hatred, which I find much more inappropriate than what is on this tread for example.

But you are not just 'a traveller' to Croatia are you? You have also bought or looking to buy a property there, judging from your other posts . And many other people coming to this forum have interest in Croatia wider than simple travel. If someone is going to buy a property there or move to live permanently it is only natural that they would like to know more than just what is the weather like, or the price of a pint. So I think that they have every right to get a glimpse into other issues, like the fact that in Croatia the most popular pop-singer is a self-proclaimed neo-Nazi and on his stadium filling concerts the audience joins in singing lyrics that would, in any other European country, be subject of criminal prosecution.

Graham, Croatia is a beautiful country which, now that there is freedom, independence, democracy and all that, has got many good opportunities for all her citizens. And to become even more popular tourist and investment destination. Inevitably, some things will change for worse like in any other transition country. But certain things, and there is quite a few of those, will have to change for better. Much better. Words 'paradise' and 'Croatia' can be in the same sentence only as a promotional slogan conceived by some ignorant government official (or his wife).

Josh

[Aljosa]

Hi All

The reason I brought it up is because I saw an Article in the bbc that during the next election there is a chance that Montenegro may want to seperate from Serbia and ask for independance.

Croatia will not directly benefir from this as there is likely to be another war from this which means that tourism will be at its lowest again.

However I do believe that It will impact Croatia as then at least Serbia will realise that the war that they pursued for so long actually shoes how many different nations don't want to be assosiated with them.


The old saying goes "The winner always comes out on top"

I can't see any reasons why the areas mentioned below Baranja, Istria and Kninska Krajina would ever want seperate from Croatia. If you have any information on this please can you share it with us.

I believe that the Serbs are showing hatred and anger cause they got the worst part of the old Yugoslavia, and if Montenegro seperates they will be very upset and want revenge. But how can so many nations all be wrong by wanting to seperate from this evil crowd of people?

Hope that clarifies what I asked in the begining

[Nicola]

I agree absolutely Josh that we all need factual politically unbiased information before visiting a new country......
I have to (shamefully) admit however to not knowing the price of a pint out there