Why is the UK so difficult?

[AngeloZ]

In today's Vjesnik (the leading Croatian broadsheet newspaper), Croatia's former foreign minister Davor Rudolf writes in a long article about how he is puzzled by the UK being stubborn and difficult in its relations with Croatia. The UK is the only country in the EU which insists on visas for Croatian citizens (which cost £40 in Zagreb) and, more importantly, the only country that would not support Croatia in its efforts to join the EU.

Rudolf quotes British historian Mark Almond in trying to explain UK's stance. The gist of it is that Croatia always had a negative image in the UK. Starting in 1848 when the Croats forced down a mutiny by liberal Hungarians against Austrian rule, to Croatia being on the side of Nazi Germany during WWII. Furthermore, there was the desire by British politicians' for Yugoslavia to remain intact.

I believe all of the above excuses are total nonsense. It is basically a strong Serbian lobby, plus a wish by the UK to keep Croatia in some sort of Western Balkan association.

How can this negative image be overcome? Suggestions here please.

[IvanaA]

There may be more weight for the current state of affairs in global politics in Rudolf's presentation of alternative views:

"There are interesting views of an other group of policy analysts who see the cause of British refusal of the (S&AA) ratification in traditional animosity of influential British politicians towards Croats and Croatia (and their inclination towards the Serbs who at the beginning of the 19th century entered in the British minds, like Byron's Greeks, as the brave warriors against the ruthless and cruel Turks)."

The same thesis which Davori Rudolf puts in brackets btw -- about the Serbs from Serbia and even Bosnia fighting the Ottoman Turks as the main force against them!!, with hardly any mention of the Croats -- is being passed through other history books abroad which serve as a refernece to foreign politicians. Say well known French linguist Paul Garde, who considers himself more of a linguist than a historian, pushes this thesis to far too biased extents in his popular book "Vie et Mort de la Yugoslavie" -- it seems that only only Serbs ever fought the Turks while to Croats he attributes the culture and that's basically it -- the culture which is obviously not well received in British circles.....
Then, how to improve the image? Building the analysis on the foreign historians' work -- who often know little of Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina and are learned about this region from Yugoslav sources in the first place -- won't help any. Even when it comes from renown diplomats such as Davorin Rudolf.

Though, I'd first like to read from such names what's the point of getting into the EU before we get the explanations why we can't.

[Josh]

I would like to hear about this 'Serbian lobby' that is, allegedly, so powerful that can influence Tony Blair on matters like British foreign policy. Is this the same lobby that persuaded Blair to bomb Serbia over Kosovo few years ago, decimating her industry, killing thousand of civilians and occupying a part of her territory? Or some other 'Serbian lobby'? Who knows how many different lobbies this powerful Balkan nation has in the UK? Maybe, even, the Serbs themselves are running the British government.

Really. Is this just another example of Croatian paranoia and egocentric need to be always approved of, never questioned, never doubted? Attacking anyone expressing any reservations about Croatian affairs? Or just unhealthy infatuation with the Serbs?

Although, I must say, the Serbs ARE to be blamed for the other 'unspeakable evil bestowed upon Croatia' by the horrible Brits: the entry visa. However, behold the wonder! Evil Brits didn't always ask for the visa. No. Until few years back there was no visa. So this theory about some sort of historic hatred for Croatia within the British establishment falls into water.

The visa was introduced to stop Croatian Serbs from coming here and applying for asylum. Simple practical reason. And anyone living in Britain SHOULD know that immigration and asylum have become hot political subjects here. Any measure that reduces the inflow of refugees is welcomed. So please stop turning this into some conspiracy theory and moaning about it like it's the end of the world. Brits need visa to enter India, for example, and even our great friend US of A will want some Brits to get a visa. I had many visitors from Croatia and nobody ever had any problems getting the visa. And since the UK is so despised by the Croats, why would anyone want to come here anyway?

As for the EU accession issue, well it would seem that the majority of Croats have become very anti-EU recently (at least there is something in common with the UK so Britan is only doing Croatia a favour by holding the process. (Although it is not only Britain but Italy and Netherlands as well. But hey, why not twist the truth a little for the common cause.)

Josh

[PROBritish]

All that's fine, I'm pro-British=anti-EU, I don't think the Serbs will be strong any time soon (unless the Croats become too weak...)

But as to other things like 'egocentric', 'paranoia' -- it's not Pan who imagined a fable in which we perished in the recent wars but it was real and still is. So you're lacking certain precision in spite of an easy mood in which you deliberate on us.

Rather try to consider being disapproved of, always questioned, always doubted... designated (but not destined) to be deleted.... from the face of the Earth... and for how many decades so? Would you call it 'attacking'? No. Would you call the 'infatuation' the peace where everyone's rendered their due in a fair manner; the fact that we don't want to get packed with Serbia again.... No. So I don't take any delight in what's happening to the Serbs, but they need to assume the responsibility for it... Till then, I prefer to be far away... or that Croatia settles its own matters first: yet another thing we have in common with the Brits don't we (visas).

[Fr]

Bit more about being 'egocentric' etc, the above mentioned Paul Garde also proves that we couldn't live with Serbia so it means the fact not being egocentric or so (it's logical that this refutes the idea of Balkan Union too)
His problem being that he gives the Croats the culture and takes away the language, so he gives us nothing; while he admires the imaginary 'brave warriors' in the Serbian history (during Ottoman empire), as if their influence dominated his work....

[Anja]

I do not think there is a 'lobby' of Serbian influence on British Government at the moment simply because Serbian influence in Croatia is very limited and can not ever be established on a very high level.
Same time, UK influence in Croatia is another matter..
It looks to me like a game with German/French 'we can not have it but we will make sure you do not get it as well'
I see it more like American influence than Serbian..

In facts, I ask myself - why would Croatia at all need UK approval for anything?
Can not Croatia be neutral, free standing and without Big Bosses 'advising' on what to do?

[Sasha]

Josh, how can you explain then that the UK is the ONLY country in the EU insisiting on visas for Croats, the ONLY country in the EU against Croatia's candidacy for the EU etc?

The Serbian lobby was influential a few years back, lobbying MP, writing letters to newspapers, misinforming journalists and so on.

British citizens are treated with respect, courtesy and friendship in Crotia and the CRO citizens should have the same treatment in the UK.

[Josh]

Thanks guys for posting your reaction. You have marvellously supported my comments. I rest my case!

[Nick]

The fact that the UK STILL insists on Visas for Croatian citizens is still a bit of a mystery. No-one can seemingly come up with a definitive answer. The facts are as follows: The number of asylum applications from those having Croatian, B-H and Slovenian nationality has reduced to virtually zero now.

The figures are below:

Applications received for Asylum in the UK from citizens of Croatia, B-H and Slovenia (from Home Office Statistics)

1994 - 1385
1995 - 1565
1996 - 620
1997 - 375
1998 - 535
1999 - 2625
2000 - 2200
2001 - 85
2002 - 90
2003 - 45

When the Visa was introduced to stop Croatian Serbs from coming here and applying for asylum, the reason may have been valid (19/11/1999). The applications were the highest of any year in the table above. But as can be clearly seen, it cannot be justified on that reason looking at the last few years!!

[Mirko]

Guest-Josh said:

Thanks guys for posting your reaction. You have marvellously supported my comments. I rest my case!

You misread the comments. Who is supporting you?

[Mirko]

It was UK's own fault why a number of CRO Serbs have asked for asylum in the UK. The UK insisted that the CRO Embassy in BELGRADE should have given them CRO passports.

Once they got passports they travelled to Budapest and flew to London.

Croatia's plan was to give them CRO identity documents in Serbia, but for passports they should go to their place of residence in Croatia, like other CRO citizens.

[Josh]

After presenting the Home Office figures Nick, “the fact that the UK STILL insists on Visas for Croatian citizens” can only be mystery to you and those who will insist on conspiracy despite clear facts. (By the way, thank you for posting the figures and proving my point.)

Still confused? OK, this might help, but think before you embarrass yourself :

- in 1995 war in the Balkans effectively stops
- in 1996 no visa requirement for Croatian citizens, No. of asylum seekers 620
- in 1997 no visa requirement for Croatian citizens, No. of asylum seekers drops to 375
- in 1998 no visa requirement for Croatian citizens, No. of asylum seekers goes up to 535 but still lower than 1996
- in 1999 sharp rise in number of asylum seekers to 2625, hence on 19/11/1999 visa is introduced (I’m going here by your data Nick so I hope you did good research)
- within a year number of asylum seekers drops to 85
- within two years number of asylum seekers drops to 45

(High figure of 2200 a.s. in the year 2000, despite the visa being in place, is due to a delay in processing the applications and in the fact that many asylum seekers coming to Britain don’t apply for asylum at the port of entry but do it later, normally within six months. This practice forced new immigration law.)

So, Nick, the question is 'What is likely to happen if visa requirement is removed and potential asylum seekers are free to board a plane to Britain'? Is the number of asylum seekers likely to go up, to stay the same, or to go down? Are the British ministers, in the current hysteria about refugees and immigration, being practical for not wanting to experiment? Is this prudence or some sinister ploy against Croatia and Croatian people forced by the mysterious 'Serbian lobby'?

As Aldous Huxley said: 'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.'

[Ben]

The UK keeping the visa scheme in place is a bit out dated now, but as others have pointed out - asylum seekers and refugees is a big topic in the UK at the moment and the government wouldn't like to be seen as lowering its stance on these areas at the moment, even if Croatia is a not source of applicants. The UK is not the only country not to have finalised the Stabilisation Pact, it is the only one to have halted work on, blaming co-operation with The Hague as the reason. If I remember correctly, the Netherlands, Belgium and Finland still have to work on it.
I don't think there is a huge pro-Serbia lobby in the UK, politicians in the UK have to declare trips abroad, committees they belong to in the Register of Members' Interests, and there are no trips to Serbia paid for by any Serbian group mentioned.
The one slightly believable conspiracy theory is that the UK would like to see the remaining Balkan countries all join in one go, rather than in a haphazard fashion.

It was UK's own fault why a number of CRO Serbs have asked for asylum in the UK. The UK insisted that the CRO Embassy in BELGRADE should have given them CRO passports.

How is this the UK’s fault? By your statement these Croatia-Serbs chose refugee status over returning home? Why? Could a possible reason be a wish to avoid being persecuted if they returned to Croatia?
Croatia still suffers from a view abroad that there is widespread discrimination in Croatia against non-Croats and corruption, and this view is reinforced by news stories such as the government having to move court cases from the regions to Zagreb to avoid blatant miscarriages of justice and tales of people being used as human slaves (www.iht.com/articles/121343.html).
Croatia also does nothing to improve its international status as a tolerant society, when it allows the line between nationalism and racial hatred to be blurred to the degree that blatant anti Serb, Jew, Roma statements are an accepted norm (culture.tol.cz/look/CER/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=14&NrIssue=59&NrSection=4&NrArticle=11813&ST1=body&ST_T1=cer&ST_PS1=1&ST_AS1=0&ST_max=1).

Personally Croatia is a great country, held back by a vocal and active racist minority who threaten its full integration into the World club.

As an aside does any one know if the 10 news countries also have to ratify the Stabilisation pact as well?

[TalkSense]

Croatia also does nothing to improve its international status as a tolerant society, when it allows the line between nationalism and racial hatred to be blurred to the degree that blatant anti Serb, Jew, Roma statements are an accepted norm

Please, talk sense, Croatia has many things to improve in its public policy management, this part is not to be argued, but to ascribe 'racial hatred' to the Croats&Croatia now -- it's ridiculous.

Watch what's going in other Western countries, will you be speaking of 'racism' in any of them as a whole and still hold to your humanist profile?

[image]http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/schoolfire_cp_5683767.jpg[/image]
Canada: Attack on a Jewish elementary school in Montreal

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[image]http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/school_anti031117.jpg[/image]
www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/11/17/world/antiSemitism031117
France: Firebombing of a Jewish boys school in Paris.
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Britain's Institutional Judeophobia
www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.06.20/oped1.html

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ah, an immigration matter too:

www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/demirovic_serbia.html

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and what about Milosevic's racism? million reports on that...


Why the Croats and Croatia now?

[Nick]

Josh, I'm not sure where in my message it says that I support the 'conspiracy theory'. I stated that it is still a mystery, because no official reason has ever been given. Like you, I am not convinced that there are dark Anti-Croat forces at work anywhere, but the clarity of immigration issues by the UK government is somewhat lacking.

However, with regard to the figures, I don't agree that attributing the drop in numbers of asylum seekers is solely due to the Visa introduction. Could it be that over the past few years when the figures are lower, that there are simply not as many people with Croat, B-H or Slovenian passports needing to seek asylum because they are able to live in XY. The UK that has strongly supported the return of ethnic minorities (as a pre-requisite for Croatia joing the EU) in XY to their former homes has admitted that it has been successful. Not perfect, but on the whole, heading in the right direction. Now we are nearly ten years after the official end to the conflict, is it that the need to seek asylum in the UK isn't significant any more?

I agree that it's a pretty sensitive time for immigration. With a general election looming in the next year, Labour wouldn't want to rock the boat. In answer to your question ''What is likely to happen if visa requirement is removed and potential asylum seekers are free to board a plane to Britain'? Is the number of asylum seekers likely to go up, to stay the same, or to go down?', I'd say the answer would probably be about the same or less, based on what I have said above.
As for being prudent, is this the same prudent UK immigration that was suspending the checking of thousands of applications and granting entrance to clear a backlog, as was revealed last week happened at a regional processing centre in the north.
You're not planning on standing as a Labour candidate in the upcoming GE are you?