Lest we remember

[star]

Of course there are, in every war. Just look at the recent one in Yugoslavia.

During WWII many civilians were afraid of the communists. In Yugoslavia they followed the Home Guard and Ustasha out of the country. Just as serb civilians followed the chetniks into austria.

The allies tried to make a deal with the devil but didn't realize te communists were not normal people and did not follow western political etiquette. Only Churchill was aware of their baseness. Too bad no one listened to him at the time.

[EMIZ]

So small children and women followed soliders into a war zone?

[star]

Out of a war zone. The war was over in Austria already. That's why they were trying to surrender to the allies who occupied the area. The partizans chased after them and rampaged through Austria behind them. The allies sent the refugees to Tito in hopes he go away. Tito had them slaughtered in order to satisfy tribal blood vengeances which was the rule in many areas of the Balkans at the time and still is in some places.

(also in sicily)

[EMIZ]

So if I have the right Star, Croatia was a victim in wwII?

Do I need to post Ustashe links to remind you exactly if the disgusting acts carried out by Croats in wwII? I find it unbelievable that Croats feel like the victims after the acts of the ustashe, the nazi's reported back to Berlin that the Ustashe were sick barbarians, and they would not condone their actions.

[croam]

EMIZ i think the point is not that Croatia was a victim in WWII...but rather that if these soldiers and citizens were guilty of something they should have at least had a trial....the german nazis weren't all slaughtered AFTER the war was over. The war was over...just because they did horrible things doesn't make it right that they were slaughtered horribly as well and buried in mass graves. You can't have a double standard. Just like its no excuse why the Ustashe did what they did, even though you can trace back and see how extreme fascism did arise in this region, but it still doesn't make it right. Why didn't we just kill Saddham Hussein??? We caught him....isn't there enough evidence to convict him in the court of opinion? Would anyone care if we strung him up on a stick on live television? No, we could probably make good money selling pay per view but that isn't what civilized people do. As civilized people we attempt to treat even our aggressors better than they would treat us. I'm not defedning the actions of the Ustashe, but I can't defend how they were exterminated either. Two wrongs does not make a right.

[star]

Exactly. In Germany the allies decided to try only the leaders and most notorious of nazis. They felt it better not to punish everyone and to rebuild the country rather than turn it to dust. Very practical move which endeared the allies to many germans.

The slavs were looked upon as lesser and expendable beings even among the allies. Probably still true today to some extent.

The forced repatriation of Croats, royalist Serbs, Cossacks, Ukrainians and anti-bolshevik russians was a war crime under the terms of the Geneva Convention. Thats why the UK and US won't open the archives. It would open a pandora's box of certain litigation. How many millions of poor, rural slavs would file lawsuits seeking damages? I think it would be quite substantial. Which is the main reason I think the allied nations prefer to keep quiet or try to further demonize them by suggesting they deserved it.
"Operation Keelhaul" was a policy worthy of its name and is rightly called by some historians as "The last secret of WWII"

[EMIZ]

Can you understand why the outsiders would just view the balkans as a screwed up area full of unspeakable evils, and not an area to give a great deal of consideration to, when they had countries to rebuild?

[star]

Sure. And the media propogated that picture. But thats all the more reason to help reconstruct the region. Economic stability leads to political stability. But as it is, the western powers are still trying to manipulate the region just as they had throughout its history.

Yugoslavia was an attempt to stabalize the "balkan powderkeg" but it was too artificial. Everyone knew there was no such thing as a yugoslav and that it was completely invented. In a way it was too bad that Tito was such a strong leader. If their leaders were weak they may had benefitted more from western aid like their Balkan neighbours the Greeks.

[croam]

i think its wrong to characterize the "balkans" as an area of "unspeakable evils" any more than it is to call dozens of other countries lands of unspeakable evils. I don't think there is any country other than Canada that doesn't have skeletons in its closet. I understand that Croatia has a long way to go ecomically and politically but your hitting below the belt and may want to consider your hard line stance against croatian society. If you look at the circumstance, former and current, you can see that modern day Croatians are vicitims of circumstance, wars aside. And if you want to include the Ustashe and the ethnic cleansing of the 90s, sorry guy but americans, brits, fill in the blank would be slaughtering each other if put to the same CIRCUMSTANCES the croats and serbs were. So its easy to sit back and say oh yeah we're more civilized. You and I have been lucky enough to not face war...not be PUT IN THAT POSITION. All do to geography and circumastance. Aren't we lucky EMIZ? ;D

[EMIZ]

I'm only refering to world war II, as this is the subject, there are certainly not a dozen countries who behaved in the same manner that croatia did in WWII.

[croam]

my point is that it wasn't the whole country that was butchering people....it was a small minority, and was occuring in pockets...

You make it sound like the whole country was a bunch of nazis who were cooking people in their home ovens. I don't think you think that but the way people continue to talk about croatia's involvement in WWII atrocities makes it sound like that is what was going on when it wasn't. Same with the 90s wars. Alot of people want to call serbs and croats barbarians...its easier to think of several cultures no one gave a about (untill it went up in flames or ever heard about) in simplistic terms. Like saying Arabs just like to kill each other...thats why they blow things up all the time...I don't think its as easy as that. But people like little neat packages so people can continue to think whatever they want. If croatia's economy was on fire no one would be saying except how great the culture,people, and country are. So hate croatia while its down because it only has one way to go(UP).

[EMIZ]

I'm sure all Croats were not savages, I just amazes me that so many Croats want to potray themselves as the victims in WWII.
If they want the truth from Bleirburg to come out, then it is time they started accepting full responsibility for what happened.

I don't want to hear we did this but but but....If and when the people who want the truth of Bleirburg to be outed are the same people who fully accept Croatia's war crimes at the same time, I say good for you learn about your history. I have no problem with you (Croam) wanting to increase awareness of Bleirburg as you accept the acts of Croatia.
My problem comes when people want to rewrite history and pain Croatia as some poor little victim. Propaganda needs to be confined to the history books.

[barba Jere]

EMIZ sometime i would think u r married to a Serb not Croat how you think but beeing Croatofob and Croat-hater im not surprised.

The fact is that thousants of people were executed without a trial of any sort. More disturbing fact is that among them were women and children.
No matter if they were Ustase they deserved a trial.

More interesting is why old regime was quiet about it. That subject was a big tabu and mass graves were hidden and not widely known about until 90ies.

And Brits knew what will happen to thouse people and they knew they would be executed and they still handed them ower while Weramcht soldiers were threated differently and massive masacre like that did not occure among German soldiers anywhere.

So,line they deserve it they were Ustase is unacceptable.

Unless you are EMIZ

[star]

Well to be fair Barba Jere the situation was different for the germans. Their army was defeated and Hitler was dead. Stalin and Tito on the other hand were still raping and pillaging their way across europe and were growing stronger every day. The allies were tired of fighting and so sacrificed the slavs to make Stalin and Tito go away. But of course thats not how things turned out. Only Churchill wanted to stand up to the communists and fight them but no one else had any fight left in them and decided to appease the communists instead. Thats why Churchill lost the election afterwards.

[barba Jere]

and Tito all of a sudden became an ally after he told Stalin to bugger off.

Thats why this medal given to Draza Mihajlovic was not handed ower during Yugoslavia time since US couldnt do it then.
They decided about it during the time when USA USSSR Cold war was building up and USA thought yugoslavia would be just another USSR satelite.


Who cares of antifascism anyhow
Lets c it black and white as it should be

All those in Bleiburg deserved it no matter 10 000 or 100 000

No matter if trial or not

No matter if children or not.

They were on the other side so they deserved it.

Simple as that


therefore its not a crime

right?