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Post by gavul on Sept 18, 2005 20:35:58 GMT 1
Yes, mostly it represents the worst aspects of the globe. Are you trying to tell me there are less cultures living in europe than there are in America? You should get an atlas and look at how many different countries there are within the same land mass as America and then take into account that in those countries there are many other cultures living. Think first, post later.
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croam
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Post by croam on Sept 18, 2005 20:56:09 GMT 1
hahahaha...thats funny... i'm talking about within your individual countries. the reason your EU constitution wasn't ratified is because you don't like each other that much, and you would never succeed in attempting to form a Euro Union like the US. Does Germany have more cultures than the US? Croatia? Italy? France? England? I have polish friends who are here working for three months and they barely speak English. Get by great. That wouldn't happen in any of the aforementioned countries.
America is country of foreigners...we killed all of the natives about a hundred fifty years ago. Maybe instead of reading Atlas's you should read a history book about a country you are posting about instead of posting random opinions that are baseless.
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Post by MidgeZg on Sept 18, 2005 21:21:52 GMT 1
Everyone knows America is a huge melting pot. It is a fact. But all European countries are getting more and more multicultral and multiracial. I thought the issue here was American government and the people who lead the country, and are trying to rule the world.
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croam
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Post by croam on Sept 18, 2005 21:30:15 GMT 1
i guess that is the issue...except that David brought out domestic issues...racism...poverty etc. thats our internal problem. stick to things that involve you such as our foreign policy.
midge i agree that europe is getting more multicultural but its far from being where the US is. In France i got yelled at twice for speaking French and not understanding their response and asking in English. In germany i primarily saw germans. in italy primarily italians, in England, well..i don't remember, Slovenia-slovenians-croatia-croatians-Netherlands-Alot of foreigners.
lets look at the Netherlands for a moment. Amsterdam had a high population of muslims who lived peacefully amongst the Dutch untill one lone maniac killed a Dutch filmmaker. In a poll, the majority of muslims interviewed believed the filmmakers murder was justified. Since then, several muslim business' and mosques have been vandalized. That would never happen in America...even though i think it should. So go figure...at least Netherlands is truly free for the natives where America is free for the foreigners who can get away with pretty much anything. Do you think that 1000s of Mexicans pay $5000 to get carried over our border EVERYDAY illegaly to work? They don't even learn English and no one cares. Anywhere else they wouldn't work. They would live together in a neighborhood they were "allowed" to live in. Hahahaha. How accepting Europe is. What a joke. And the only reason I'm saying this is because no one else is. I'm not a die hard nationalist by any means. I just happen to usually side with the underdog, in the case of public opinion, America is the underdog. Adijo
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Post by davidzg on Sept 18, 2005 22:01:49 GMT 1
This is really nice and all, especially the guest appearance from our resident nutcase. Croam you were incredibly arrogant about the USA, I don't think you can see it.
Take a step back and re-read your post, it reeks of unjustified American supremacy.
America like everywhere else is just one other country, it has it’s good sides and bad sides. The fact that people even call it America is arrogant, there was an America before the USA. Brazil, Mexico and Jamica is America too. The difference between your post and American woman's post is huge, you may agree, but she said it in a reasoned manner and you were arrogant.
Ghost (New Orleans), it is about black people, the fact that so many of the poor in the US are black highlights how a person’s chances are limited by the colour of their skin. The fact that so many of these “poor people” happened to be black is not some random coincidence.
The reason I mentioned the race war is because it annoys me when anybody builds a country up and exaggerates its claims just because they come from that country, why do people do that? The Shepherds in the government must be ecstatic that their sheep do such a wonderful job.
Baaa England is better than anywhere in the world baaaa, I want Tony Blair to have my babies baaaa. The queen is amazing baaaa. Somebody mention that these water defence barriers have needed raising since the 60’s you can bet your bottom dollar that had the tenants of the affected areas been white executives that drive gas guzzling Mercedes the barrier would have been in place a long time ago.
USA is for the most part a good country, it's foreign policy is however a disgrace, current us foreign policy is nothing short of economic empire building sadly my country followed this Bush buffoon.
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Post by gavul on Sept 18, 2005 23:36:25 GMT 1
Maybe you should look at the hisroy books to refresh your memory croam. Maybe you think they killed all the indians, but in fact there are still many alive. Amazing huh ? What does it matter that all those people live under the banner of America, the fact is that it's a group of people living in a region of a certain size. I've got no idea where you went in Germany, but I can tell you that I travel extensively through Germany every year, and it's full of africans, indians, asians etc. as is britain, and france. Italy not so much. Sure croatia isn't like that, but it is happening slowly,and lets not forget the thousands of Bosnians and hungarians that have been living here for ages .I'm australian, so I know what it is to live in a very multicultural country, the thing is that people in europe in my opinion are more tolerant in general of other races because you are surrounded by them. So, again I state that europe is a much more multi cultuarl place than the US. I've driven from Canada to New York, That's all of the US that I've experienced personaly, but even in new york state, you can go to places that couldn't be further from multicultural, and then you've got the mid west.
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croam
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Post by croam on Sept 19, 2005 2:06:15 GMT 1
cleveland is in the midwest and has the largest population of Croatian Diaspora...
Your living in an alternate universe if you see more cultures represented, PER CAPITA, in the countries you mentioned. and you didn't refute me line by line but merely puppeted generalizations that have been around for a long long time.
Sorry,displaced Bosnians in Croatia isnt a foreign population compared to having chinese or africans. bosnians aren't that different of a culture. and they are caucasion. I guess you missed China town in NYC...or the fact that there is a little Italy, Chinatown, and little everything(fill in the blank). You can't see the US in three weeks....and a vacation isn't seeing what life is like when you live it here.
you guys are amusing though...very emotional and defensive and offensive towards my points which you don't even take the time to refute and the ones you do you don't refute so well. Oh well, you can scroll back up and reread. Or i can repost and you can send me your tuition for the history and current events lessons to my paypal account.
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Post by Kurt on Sept 19, 2005 3:46:25 GMT 1
Croam, Sorry for being so direct, but it's people like you (talks alot, says nothing) that were a major reason that I, an American, moved to Europe to find a better place to live. I am so happy to be living in Europe, where I feel alive, than living in my hopelessly lost and rapidly declining native country, where every day living there part of my soul and humanity died.
So from one American to another, please get down off that 50 foot pedestal and learn how to appreciate and respect other countries and human beings. Waving flags is so shallow and utterly meaningless. American is one of 200+ nations in a world community of nations. American has some good points but, especially the last 10-25 years, many bad or even terrible aspects. I'm so tired of American is the best this and America is the greatest that. I can only imagine how most non-Americans feel about this rabid beast. As a world traveler who has spent a lot of time out of America, I can say with 100% conviction that there are much better places to live.
And tread lightly on bragging about your expertise on history and current events. Knowing as many clueless Americans as I do and the absolutely terrible media where most people get their news and information, an American lecturing others around the world on these subjects is a truly laughable thought.
I'm with DavidZG. You're arrogant and worst of all, you don't even realize it. Perhaps you should consider spending a year somewhere to gain some much needed perspective.
As for American women who says "at least we are free to discuss these things", uh news flash so are people in about 100 other countries able to do the same. As for your freedom, I should not even have to point out how the people of New Orleans have been enjoying their freedoms, freedom from food, water, shelter, sanitation and safety for days on end. And now freedom from their homes likely forever. This is but the most recent example. Perhaps you should attempt to exercise your freedom of speech at the next Bush speech or event. You'll be in a heavily guarded 20x20 "free speech zone" about a mile down the road. Such freedom.
PS: to Croam, the USD is on a slow but relentless and inevitable march to utter worthlessness. Like all fiat currencies (incl. the euro), it is no more than a promise backed by the govt. All such currencies go bust with time, especially when the govt backing the currency prints more and more money. With the amount of dollars flowing around the world, esp. recently (think US and world real estate markets with abnormal and unnatural white hot growth) the USD is doomed. Don't say you weren't warned.
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Post by noddy on Sept 19, 2005 5:46:52 GMT 1
i think croam only tried to say that he sees bad sides of america (esp the government), but decides to focus on the positive aspects of living there, which i think is a positive attitude, esp if you live there. just like i see tons of bad things in croatia, but prefer to focus on the good ones. personally i really dislike american politics and how they're trying to rule the world. and i wouldn't want to live there. i'm not even interested in visiting. but i also believe that MOST (or even ALL) the countries given that chance (money and the power) would lead a similar policy toward the "rest of the world" (that is acting only in their own interest under pretense of democracy and similar hypocritical excuses). that said, i do believe (and from all the posts it's obvious most of the posters agree) that america, like every other country has it's bad as well as good sides. la vie en rose cheers
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croam
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Post by croam on Sept 19, 2005 6:06:52 GMT 1
"Sorry for being so direct, but it's people like you (talks alot, says nothing) that were a major reason that I, an American, moved to Europe to find a better place to live."
Bravo Kurt!! I'd like to be the first one to pin a purple heart on to your bleeding heart chest. Ridiculous post... Its ironic how you accused me of saying alot and not saying anything at all and then you go and do the same thing. So you leave your motherland when things are bad eh? You imbecile. You only left America for Europe because you had enough money. I guess your heart goes out to people but its only rhetoric as you left soooo many people behind who couldn't afford to leave. Kurt, I guess you'll leave whatever country you are in now in Europe when it gets bad too. Hmmmmnnnn. where will u run to? Who will u leave behind there? Ummmmmm...maybe I'm missing something but i didn't read anything honorable or memorable in your post. Oh and thanks for the advice about getting out of America....the sinking ship that it is. Wow, that was an eye opener for me. I have an apartment in Croatia so thanks for your unsolicited advice. At least NODDY isn't a knee-jerk reactionary. Thanks for reading between the lines which these guys can't. I actually spelled it out for them. It's all right there saved on Anna's servers! In Black & White!! wow... I mean, I held their hands for them and walked them through it like a little child but they still missed the whole point. What a ridiculous rebuttal as well. Didn't even TOUCH the points I outlined....because my argument was bulletproof so i guess thats why. Thanks Noddy for not being a propagandist.
...jeez what a buffoon for attacking AmerWom who is always very diplomatic in her responses. Your a joke dude. Thanks again for digressing again to domestic issues, which you abandoned a long time ago. So don't pretend to care. You think a Croat would have any respect if they left Croatia for America in 1995? You left because you didn't FEEL like being there anymore. How covenient and nice. I can do the same thing. Too bad MOST other people can't. Thats why I don't thank myself for being able to leave...or for going back alot. Wow, your so worldly now Kurt. Awesome! Why don't you relinquish your US citizenship while your at it since your so happy and you jumped to the front of the line to take the first lifeboat, passing women and children, on the sinking ship that is America? jeez.....what a joke. if it wasn't so sad and pathetic i would be laughing.but its too dark and DULL even for a dark comedy. Laku Noc. PS Alot more information packed into a post as long or shorter than yours. If you want lessons on formulating a stance and defending it you can send me a PM and deposit money into my Paypal account. History lessons, Croatian language lessons, english if you forgot it as well, including lessons on how to grow some ballz so that you don't have to run away again when the going gets tough where your currently at.
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Post by Kurt on Sept 19, 2005 7:46:28 GMT 1
Looks like I struck a nerve with Croam. It's uncomfortable to hear the truth sometimes and some people react violently or aggressively to it. I don't need to defend or justify my decision to live abroad but a few points are worth noting: 1) I was very active in politics in the last few years, but after two sham presidential elections, a continuing decline in society and an alarming apathy from the people in the face of disturbing developments, I concluded, right or wrong, there is really no hope for the US until this cancer has run its course. It's going to take a complete economic and social collapse for things to change, a rebirth of sorts. In my opinion, it is coming soon...within 3 years max. America needs a revolution, about 15 years overdue I think. This will be painful when it happens but utterly beneficial and necessary in the long-run. 2) Thanks Einstein for informing me why I left the US. Leaving the US (and I may decide to return home someday depending on many factors) had much to do with the current environment over there as well as having a European girlfriend and preferring to be in Europe with somebody special. So shut the **** up about my reasons for being here. Passing women and children to get out? I don't remember that scene at the Dallas airport. What a stupid, juvenile analogy. 3) I had (and have) very little money while making the move to Europe. But I felt a definite and almost urgent need to do so. I did it on a few hundred dollars (literally), and I left a lucrative career and job situation behind for a very uncertain and fragile economic future (as a non-EU citizen it is not easy to find work) here, so lose your silly fantasy of me being some rich coward prancing off to Europe. As for others who don't or can't leave, that is their life to live. I'll proceed with my life. 4) If you think I am some unusual, shameful case of an American who wants to leave, you are very mistaken. There are millions of us who are wise enough to see what is developing and who feel a desire to live someplace else. Perhaps you should check, as an example, www.escapeartist.com where 500,000+ people are on the distribution list for their email magazine, Escape from America, which is designed for Americans seeking a more rewarding and enjoyable lifestyle in other places. Or maybe you ought to think about the 3 millions Americans who live and work abroad, probably most because they, as people with perspective, enjoy living in other places more. 5) I guess you can't read very well. I did not say to get out of America (although I might agree with that), I said the dollar is going to do nothing but decline to zero over time. Weren't you the one that said you would be getting 12 kuna to the $? You'll be getting $12 per kuna before that ever happens. 6) As for American woman, I am not sure I "attacked" anyone, but she is very representative of many people in the US. Those who go on and on for days about their precious "freedom" and "liberty" and sing happy songs while it is literally ripped away in front of them. Now that would be funny if it weren't so tragic. 7) Knee-jerk reactionary? Another stupid comment. Reactionaries are extreme right-wingers, like the criminal thugs in charge now. I'm a progressive liberal who finds Europe to be better suited to my worldview. I thought you were supposed to be the expert on all things intellectual here. 8) As for your earlier assertion that Arabs/Muslims would not get attacked in the US based on ethnicity and/or religion, are you really this ignorant? In the 4+ years since 9/11 there must be 1000s of instances in the US when Arabs/Muslims were randomly attacked/beaten up/verbally abused and/or their mosques, homes, or businesses damaged. You should follow the news sometime, dude. Maybe your view of American comes exclusively from the movies and TV shows where all is right and good and pure. Time to leave Fantasy Island and walk the streets, pal. 9) I'd bet a large amount of money that, for all your talk and pro-US arrogance, you'd be on the first plane to Croatia rather than stay in the US if things got really bad. 10) It's really bizarre for you to act like some history professor when you try to make a comparison between the United States and the EU. There are at dozens of different, diverse, and distinct peoples in Europe, with THOUSANDS of years of cultural history for each. Now they are trying to integrate in some, not all ways in a complex, modern world. To compare that with the formation of the US, from relatively similar immigrant cultures in a new, shared land with a common history of only a few decades, in much simpler times over 230 years ago is completely inappropriate. Just another silly thought from you. 11) Your next bulletproof argument will be your first. Enough with you. You're just a dumb, loud, know-it-all jerk. You're definitely in the right country.
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Post by gavul on Sept 19, 2005 10:43:15 GMT 1
Nicely put Kurt, I think it's mucher better that he hears this stuff from an American. Croam, the sooner you go to a flea market and sell that high horse you're riding around on, the better off you'll be and the people around you. I laughed especialy loud when you mentioned little Italy, Dude, we have the real italy here and I'm pretty sure there are more italians in it.
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Post by morning on Sept 19, 2005 12:01:12 GMT 1
Kurt - Excellent post. It is really refreshing to hear an American viewpoint that is not based on dogma
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Post by davidzg on Sept 19, 2005 12:18:03 GMT 1
Kurt, thank your for your honest and educated reply, of course I am biased as it agrees with a lot of what I said. The point is like Gav said, it carries more weight when it comes from an American. You also explained it much better than I ever could. Noddy, nobody is attacking croam for his love of his country, actually I am nto trying to attack him at all, but he seems overly defensive and aggressive. I love my country (England as you know), I can sit here for days and list the great side of England, I could probably fill a whole day listing the good side of Croatia Just because my country has good sides, does not mean I shall not be aware of its negatives or claim supremacy over another country. A half Croatian-half American male is probably one of the most patriotic human beings you are ever likely to find, that could easily spiral into nationalism, I don’t think it does in Croam’s case but it is unquestionably arrogant. The point is, his attitude that USA is better than anywhere else, is a very common thing stateside, this unfounded arrogance annoys me and many others. Look back at his posts that annoyed me, the stench of arrogance is almost too much to take. Anyway Noddy, you just spent 3 minutes reading this when you could have been taken care of your husband and cleaning the house etc
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croam
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Post by croam on Sept 19, 2005 14:45:12 GMT 1
"the point is, his attitude that USA is better than anywhere else" -- David, I never said this but thanks for putting words into my mouth. Wow, you have alot of friends backing you up. Good job propagandists.
"Just because my country has good sides, does not mean I shall not be aware of its negatives or claim supremacy over another country." -wow...guess you didn't read my posts
"Half american half croat"-- i'm not half american...although i was born here. guess your thinking of someone else.
hahaha Kurt...your funny. Ever hear of rereading what you wrote and editing for brevity?? BACK UP POINT 8 on your list! You can't. Send me a link to at least three articles to at least provide proof of at least 3 out of those 1000s of attacks on muslims in America that happen every year. Why don't you refute my point on Amsterdam? well, i know why because you can't.
Wow, AMAZING how you guys got so much more out of what i wrote than is there or was intended. Either your blind idealogues, partially illiterate, or have a cognitive disorder. I stand by everything I said. Hell, I wrote it, and its all right there and black and white for you guys to reread if you wan't. I have no problem admitting i am wrong or intelligent debate, but I don't like being misquoted.
And finally, this is a VISIT CROATIA POST, not a "soapbox for whiney pregnant doging about America and George Bush". I'm sure there are plenty of other boards for that. You guys seriously didn't get enough attention from your parents growing up.
I'm Done with this thread. Have at it. Hahahahaha. You guys are awesome!
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