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Post by jellybean on Jun 20, 2009 20:05:34 GMT 1
I know its a touchy subject swept under the carpet but here goes.Was just researching the victim lists and out of the 400 0r so victims with my surname i noticed 4 men of varying ages from my small village on Hvar had died there. What were the probable circumstances how they ended up there?Would they have been captured while with the partisans?Could someone shed some light on this without a major historical lesson as i have studied the camp history but not the reasons why some island men ended up there
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Post by ray51 on Jun 20, 2009 21:59:31 GMT 1
Interesting ! Sorry , can't help with Jasenovac ; my grandfather was caught , hiding Jews and others in the roof-space of his restaurant , near Kvaternikov Trg in Zgb , during NDH ; ended ( his life ) in Auschwitz ; the family received some papers to confirm this , not a penny compensation , ever ; Sic Transit Gloria Mundi ?
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Post by Sasha on Jun 21, 2009 13:38:09 GMT 1
I never heard (or read) that people from the islands would end in Jasenovac, as Hvar was in the Italian occupation zone until 9th September 1943. Some people from the islands moved to Croatia (NDH) trying to avoid Italian rule. Or maybe they joined the Partisans and were caught by CRO fascist.
Jasenovac is not a touchy subject any more great crimes were committed there, and no one denies that.
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Post by justapixel on Jun 21, 2009 15:20:19 GMT 1
I know its a touchy subject swept under the carpet but here goes.Was just researching the victim lists and out of the 400 0r so victims with my surname i noticed 4 men of varying ages from my small village on Hvar had died there. What were the probable circumstances how they ended up there?Would they have been captured while with the partisans?Could someone shed some light on this without a major historical lesson as i have studied the camp history but not the reasons why some island men ended up there That's uncommon, because Hvar was under the Italian occupation who had their own network of concentration camps, but most of the times they didn't bother and preferred the immediate firing squad execution. The most probable scenario is that these 4 men ended in one of the Partisan brigades (most of them did) who fought in Bosnia and Herzegovina and were captured there by Germans or UstaĊĦe and sent to Jasenovac. .
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Post by kesterj on Jun 21, 2009 16:30:08 GMT 1
Interesting ! Sorry , can't help with Jasenovac ; my grandfather was caught , hiding Jews and others in the roof-space of his restaurant , near Kvaternikov Trg in Zgb , during NDH ; ended ( his life ) in Auschwitz ; the family received some papers to confirm this , not a penny compensation , ever ; Sic Transit Gloria Mundi ? Ray51; if he died in Auschwitz and was sent there for protecting Croatian Jewry at the very least he should be awarded something by the authorities in Israel. I'm not sure about money, butAIUI the Israelis are very specific, nay fastidious, about recognising any bravery by gentiles protecting Jewry during WWII. And (again, I am no expert at all) if he was unlawfully killed by German SS forces there i was under the impression that the German state has awarded compensation for such victims. You may of course have to apply for this. It may be that he was sent there by the Ustase, in which case he may be some sort of special case, but if they did that (the Ustase handing over such people, i mean) it is still ultimately the SS which murdered him. AFAIK this is the general ruling, ie they can't pretend the Sonderkommandos did the murdering, just because they shut the doors or pushed the victims in, etc. It was all done under the ultimate control of the SS. kesterj
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Post by kesterj on Jun 21, 2009 16:37:42 GMT 1
I know its a touchy subject swept under the carpet but here goes.Was just researching the victim lists and out of the 400 0r so victims with my surname i noticed 4 men of varying ages from my small village on Hvar had died there. What were the probable circumstances how they ended up there?Would they have been captured while with the partisans?Could someone shed some light on this without a major historical lesson as i have studied the camp history but not the reasons why some island men ended up there Sorry, i only learned of the existence of Jasenovac some months ago, so I am largely ignorant of the subject. Is there much available in English on this camp? Was it a death camp by design, or a work camp where the conditions were so awful that people just dropped dead from exhaustion? Is there any memorial at the site today? It does beg the question: if the Ustase had their own punishment systems including work/death camps, how did Ray51's grandfather end up in Auschwitz for 'crimes' committed in Croatia? kesterj
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Post by Sasha on Jun 21, 2009 17:06:51 GMT 1
Kesterj, google there is a lot of material on the Internet, but it is waste of time to read anything from Serbian sources, much exaggerated. Yeas there is a nice memorial on the site. Re: Ray51 claim about his grandfather: since mid 1942 CRO Jews and their supporters were not sent to Jasenovac, but directly to Auschwitz. I think Nazi representative in Zagreb, ambassador Siegfried Kasche made this decision.
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Post by ray51 on Jun 21, 2009 20:34:23 GMT 1
My grandfather was one Luka Levanic , a middle-class resto/canteen & B&B operator in a tiny street off Maksimirska , which tiny street I believe may not now exist anymore ; he was a Croat proper , "Zagorec" , apolitical ; anycase , we have had bits of all sorts of material , about him being sent to Auschwitz , never to return ; the family has long since fell apart , ceased to exist etc... so : what's the point ( expect recognising the established truth/s ) ?
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