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Post by Ribaric on Jul 26, 2010 11:19:23 GMT 1
My experience is that Pink Floyd has it about right. There are hurdles and seversal of them are pretty stupid but, with persistence, there are opportunities here. I don't think it is any easier in the UK to get a good-ish business running, maybe the admin and beaurocracy is easier but the competition is much stiffer.
My determination, grit, persistence etc will soon be put to the test as a group of us open a strat-up at some point later this year. We know we will be tested to the limit and our team will be put under enormous pressure, we'll see how it goes. It was not easy 15 years ago in the UK either. "Failure is not an option" is the attitude to take.
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Post by mambo on Jul 26, 2010 11:23:29 GMT 1
@ Pinkfloyd,
The idea of selling cold water is good, however.....................only a few years ago a company in Labin tried to do that. They bought all the equipment for producing water, set it up and wanted to start working, but....................... the inspectors stopped him ! The existing water producers (Jana and others) did not want him on the market, so they blocked him and the guy went bankrupt (he had bought all new equipment).
So yep, you have good ideas, but reality is slightly different.
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Post by mambo on Jul 26, 2010 11:33:58 GMT 1
@ Ribaric
What is a 'strat up' ? Am not too familiar with the Brit abbreviations, so excuse my asking.
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Post by Ribaric on Jul 26, 2010 13:26:23 GMT 1
Usually, "Strat", being short for "Stratocaster" means this..... However, in this case, my fingers typed "strat" when my brain wanted them to type "start". A "start-up" refers to a new business or organisation which registers for the first time. This is distinct from an existing business which is taken over by somebody new. Yes, a small group of us are mid-way in the preparations for a start-up operation.
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Post by mambo on Jul 26, 2010 14:33:59 GMT 1
Ok,
Start up am familiar with, thought that 'strat up' was something special.
The 'failure is not an option' attitude is a good one, but sometimes in this country you run into opposition that not a single amount of motivation can change. When you run into inspectors or other officials who simply refuse to cooperate or speed up their work then you are left with 2 choices: 1. Wait until you resolve the problems 2. Start up without the permissions and hope for the best.
If you follow the first route you will ruin your budget and increase the chances of going bankrupt before ever doing anything.
If you follow the second route you will protect yourself from bankruptcy, but you run the risk of finding yourself in court ending up paying loads of fines.
My advice ?
Find something for which you need as little permissions as possible and where you have only few (better: none) competitors who can block you by sending anonymous complaints to inspectors. In other words, rent existing space (which already has all the permissions), don't use exotic machines (which they have never seen before) and make sure your neighbors like you. And as for contracts ? Nice wall paper, for the rest completely worthless.
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 26, 2010 17:22:47 GMT 1
Picking an important point from Chez's original post; "Being a carer I've not had any business experience at all but how difficult can it be?"
It can be VERY difficult Chez, so make sure that you get good advice. This is a discussion forum and while there are some professionals here, it should not be used as your main source of information.
Perhaps some of the replies need a little clarification;
“Wait until you resolve the problems”
Any "problems" should be identified as early as possible, so plan well ahead and be prepared to invest a good deal of time to investigate your ideas. Certainly don’t rush into anything or “let your heart rule your head” so to speak. You should never start a business here without the correct paperwork.
“If you follow the first route you will ruin your budget and increase the chances of going bankrupt before ever doing anything.”
Setting up any new business involves an amount of investment in research which many people do not allow for, so try and build this into your budget. Simply visiting Croatia a few times to inspect potential sites, setting up your company and so on can cost a you a few thousand Euros.
“Start up without the permissions and hope for the best.”
This is quite simply a route for disaster and should be avoided at all costs. There are various comments above explaining what can happen if you do this, where people have invested heavily in equipment and premises before getting the correct paperwork in place.
From your post it’s obvious that you want to get out of the UK sooner rather than later, but do take care that you are looking to re locate abroad for the right reasons.
Once you have properly looked into your idea, you can then decide if your budget is sufficient and your reasons for doing it are sound. If you are still left with many doubts, then be realistic and consider something else or walk away.
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Post by mambo on Jul 26, 2010 19:10:10 GMT 1
@ Madgolfer,
That sounds all very nice, but reality is a bit different. You can do all the research that you want to do, find out how long it will take to get the permissions, but.......................reality is completely different. Officially a location permission, building permission, selling permission, production permission.......all have maximum times in which the government should give an answer. UNTIL you actually apply for the permissions, which means file the paperwork and start waiting, you will NEVER find out what the actual waiting time is.
If you would need e.g. production space you can only apply once you have the contract of lease. Having that contract means you start paying the owner. If the paperwork is then delayed by 2 or 3 years the owner of that building is not going to tell you that you don't need to pay the rent.
Officially our procedure should have been finished in 8 months, for which we had planned.........in reality it almost took 3 years, which meant 2 years lost production while we were completely ready for starting that same production. We ended up paying 3 years rent, salaries, insurances etc and that was not planned. We managed to solve it by looking 'friendly' at our investors, but obviously it was a lot of unnecessary money down the drain.
For private people this is also possible. Some people have e.g. build a heating system in their house, which needs to be checked by an inspector prior to receiving permission to use the heating. When you find out that the inspector is simply not showing up and you have to wait another year before he finds time.............then how do you want to plan for that ? Is that poor planning of the owner of the building ?
Of course you should identify problems as early as possible and most serious companies have a very elaborate planning process requiring engineers, architects, installation companies etc. Our set up required a stack op papers that ended up being 1,5 meters high !!! But again, also here you run into unforseen problems when officials don't accept paperwork, don't want to show up, don't finish their work on time or simply refuse to live by the law. Trust me, there is not a lot you can do to prepare for that.
Setting up any business will require a solid business plan and as you know a solid financial analysis is part of that business plan. Construction and set up cost are part of the financial plan and normally that is based on worst case scenarios plus a part 'unforseen' cost. When the start up company actually starts investing the clock starts ticking. The complete financial and business plan is based on money starting to be generated due to sales. If for some reason the sales are delayed beyond what was calculated (in other words beyond worst case scenario plus unforseen) for the start up company needs to generate additional finances.
In Croatia it is not uncommon that actual start up is delayed by several years. Just take a look at the multi-nationals which eventually gave up or sustained heavy losses due to the slow bureaucracy.
And although it sounds strange.........................many Croatian companies start working without all the permissions. They reach a point where the choice is closing down (before even starting production) and thus facing bankruptcy or taking the gamble and start working.
It is e.g. possible to have all the permissions except one. It is possible that e.g. the permission to use the electricity outlets is not yet in, while you already received the permission to use the premises. What do you do ? You will be polite and keep waiting or you will simply start and run the risk ?
Most Croatians know that not having permissions is not a problem at all.............as long as nothing happens. You can use machines for which no permission has been received as long as you are the only one using them.
Really Mad Golfer, I admire you ideas, but you have a bit of simplistic view of the Croatian bureaucracy. That is fine if you have a simple idea (e.g. selling souvenirs or importing goods), but if you start more complex projects it becomes a completely different matter. And building a house is not something which classifies as a complex project.
Rockwool (Istria), Pevec (Pula) and Metro (Zadar) are the most well known victims.
I hope you are not going to claim that these companies did not plan well enough ?
Your advice to Chez is correct: 'don't let your heart rule your head' and visiting Croatia multiple times, proper planning etc is absolutely a must.
I always have to think of the words of Flavio Briattore when he was asked how difficult it was to become millionaire in F-1, the same would apply for Croatia......................
It is very simple to become a millionaire in Croatia..............you simply start as a billionaire.
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Post by riki on Jul 29, 2010 7:37:38 GMT 1
Ok, My advice ? Find something for which you need as little permissions as possible and where you have only few (better: none) competitors who can block you by sending anonymous complaints to inspectors. In other words, rent existing space (which already has all the permissions), don't use exotic machines (which they have never seen before) and make sure your neighbors like you. And as for contracts ? Nice wall paper, for the rest completely worthless. Great advice! I'd like to know, where do you find out what permissions are required? Like, if you wanted to start a camp site, what are the legal requirements and where would you find that list?
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Post by riki on Jul 29, 2010 14:10:20 GMT 1
Surely there must be some sort of publication? In South Africa we have a business blue book that comes out every year and outlines all the busines rules and laws.
Maybe the answer is to just do whatever you plan to do and wait for someone to tell you what permit you need?
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Post by riki on Jul 30, 2010 11:04:28 GMT 1
So if you are on very good terms with your neighbours (ie employ their children, help them with free English lessons, etc) and are not in competition with them, you shouldn't ever have to worry about permissions and inspectors?
Change Step 7 to 'make friends with the locals' and skip directly to step 14!
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 30, 2010 13:08:58 GMT 1
Carol has hit the nail on the head. Carol you need to get that printed up and translated and sent to Kosor. Hopefully shell read it to the end before throwing it in the bin.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 30, 2010 16:58:49 GMT 1
how skrood up is that
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Post by aliceuberalles on Jul 30, 2010 20:04:42 GMT 1
I've lived here in Croatia for a year and half now and I've never, in my life, heard so many stories of people reporting other people to various inspectors. There seems to be an inspector for everything. Why is everyone so d**n caught up in petty envy and jealousy? It's childish, unproductive and hurts everyone in the long-term. BTW, I don't really expect an answer to this question.
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Post by mambo on Jul 30, 2010 20:59:35 GMT 1
@ Aliceuberalles, . I know you don't expect an answer, but as a tip.....there was an article about Croatian mentality, about the obsession with money. That is also the driving factor for calling inspectors, because it cannot be that you just arrive and have a better life than someone who has been here all his life. They want to profit from your success and if they can't............they will call the inspectors.
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Post by ray51 on Jul 31, 2010 8:30:31 GMT 1
Not very complimentary comments , then ? Would anyone think otherwise , if they did not have to get involved with running their own business/es ? Yet , it appears that a few retirees I heard of manage to remain blissfully happy , somehow ...is there something in the water , that makes them so ( can't be the wine , nor Zhuja , surely ? ) , one wonders...
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