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Post by newhere on Oct 31, 2012 9:36:41 GMT 1
Justapixel, c'mon, Tudman and the whole Croatian government at the time where POLITICIANS and without their say, NO there wouldnt have been a war, an uprising or revolt yes, but full blown war, no! for years before war started there was nationalism, croatia for croatians was the call Croatians had no army, no real weapons, no war training, etc and without politicians you could not have got your arms from Germany, got Nato's help or gotten so called logistical support from the us and britain. All you have to do is look at peoples attitudes today and for example they constantly complain of inflation and all sorts to do with the government, but in now way will they really do anything about it! So can you really expect that war would have happed back then without politicians?
So, the truth is yes people fought the war on behalf of politicians no matter how you see it! remember propaganda is that tool that politicians used to make people think and believe they were fighting for themselves and for Croatia this is why only politicians benefit from wars!
Nationalist fervor I really think you must have been sucked into Propaganda to deny this was a main factor in the war! many racist groups around europe were volunteers in Croatian army the reason serbs were classified as jew like in WW2, something the Ustashe loved too! Interview with a Croatian fighting unit on the frontline somewhere : "We are fighting this war for two reasons to be free and after that to rid our land of serbs", sounds like nationalism to me! Dont forget the mass purges by civilians and police all over croatia, just because they were serb Just have a look at the video's and comments on youtube
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Post by quest on Oct 31, 2012 10:07:54 GMT 1
Newhere, I think you have a problem not seeing the forest for the trees here pretty much ;D ;D
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Post by justapixel on Oct 31, 2012 10:48:59 GMT 1
Justapixel, c'mon, Tudman and the whole Croatian government at the time where POLITICIANS and without their say, NO there wouldnt have been a war, an uprising or revolt yes, but full blown war, no! Yes, of course there was nationalism, but in the beginning all the nationalists did was waving flags and complaining about too many Serbs in army and police. Nationalism was also very young at that time, with HDZ founded in mid-1989. And no, HDZ couldn't have avoided the war, because the war really started the moment Croatia and Slovenia decided to leave the Union. Everything after that was waiting and choosing between fighting and subduing (subduing is what Bosnia partially did, leading to much greater losses further on). There was another option, a confederacy, supported by SDP, but even that wouldn't help much because Slobo was intent on keeping all Serbs not only in the same country, but in the same republic. The war would only have been delayed by a few months. for years before war started there was nationalism, croatia for croatians was the call Croatians had no army, no real weapons, no war training, etc and without politicians you could not have got your arms from Germany, got Nato's help or gotten so called logistical support from the us and britain. "For years"="For 2 years". Growth of nationalism in Croatia and Slovenia was the direct result of what was happening in Serbia and Kosovo in late eighties. People were disgusted and people were scared. All they wanted was get the hell out of there, and do it as soon as possible. As for arms, they were smuggled, mostly by air and sea. At first JNA controlled the borders, later there was an arms embargo and there was no legal way to import weapons. As for military training, we didn't lack in trained personnel, there were quite a few. Sadly, many of them were downplayed because of their previous career in JNA. NATO support came much later, when most of the fighting was already done. Britain has never in any way supported Croatian independence, I have no idea where you came with that. That being said, it's obvious that politicians (HDZ) utterly failed in gaining foreign support. If JNA and Serbs were more humane, if there were no Dubrovnik or Vukovar, we would have never been recognized by international community as an independent country. All you have to do is look at peoples attitudes today and for example they constantly complain of inflation and all sorts to do with the government, but in now way will they really do anything about it! So can you really expect that war would have happed back then without politicians? I see no connection. Yes, too many people today still think the old sot way, in their minds gov't creates jobs and solves all the problems. As for "politicians" back then, obviously the people leading the country could have chosen either to subdue or to fight. There was no middle ground. What would you have chosen? So, the truth is yes people fought the war on behalf of politicians no matter how you see it! remember propaganda is that tool that politicians used to make people think and believe they were fighting for themselves and for Croatia this is why only politicians benefit from wars! Yes, there was lots of propaganda back then and it started substantially getting stronger once the fighting started, but it was easy to read through and it wasn't really needed. When your own house is being shelled you don't need TV or radio to explain to you that you have to fight back. Only later, through the years, did the propaganda combined with real Serbian war crimes create the rigid nationalist mindset that you can still come across in Croatia and that is driving us back. As for the politicians benefiting from the war - all the parties (apart from SDS) supported defending Croatia, while the ones gaining the benefit of increased post-war support were the right-wingers, as usual. Nationalist fervor I really think you must have been sucked into Propaganda to deny this was a main factor in the war! ;D Me sucked into propaganda? All I can say is LOL. You are only right if you equate the will to secede and create independent country with nationalist fervor. many racist groups around europe were volunteers in Croatian army the reason serbs were classified as jew like in WW2, something the Ustashe loved too! Interview with a Croatian fighting unit on the frontline somewhere : "We are fighting this war for two reasons to be free and after that to rid our land of serbs", sounds like nationalism to me! Yes, we had HOS and other extreme right wing groups present on the front line, and as it always happens during a war, they were very loud while others kept quiet. At the top of the nationalist sentiment, up to 20% of the population supported them. But still they are not representative of the other 80% of population. You should understand that Republic of Croatia, as part of Yugoslavia, was created in WWII, by partisans who fought Nazis and these are the people who lived there at the beginning of 90's. Dont forget the mass purges by civilians and police all over croatia, just because they were serb Just have a look at the video's and comments on youtube Yeah, firing all those Serbs only on a national basis was one of greatest mistakes made by HDZ. If it were done more fairly and less extensively, we would have gained much more support among the rural Serbs. But sadly, after all these people got fired, they got scared and became much more susceptible to Milošević's propaganda. Tolerating the fools brandishing Ustaše iconography didn't help either. .
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Post by newhere on Nov 1, 2012 14:04:53 GMT 1
I guess I just probably angered a Croatian by expressing a different view on the war that doesn't make croatia look totally innocent and Just wanted a peaceful life, but were forced into agression!
OK, Justapixel we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one
quest, oh-dear, I will just ignore your feeble attempt to back-up your buddy in your non intelligent sounding way!
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Post by kesterj on Nov 3, 2012 12:35:42 GMT 1
I don't hate Croatia, I do just loathe its people, culture, politics, religion and geography??? I don't know, but I suspect that we will see more of this sort of thing in other countries in the years to come. i.e. extreme politics entering the mainstream and gaining power. We live in difficult times and that's what generally has happened in the past when things have been difficult. (In particular, i am thinking of the extreme right and left wing politics that had such widespread support in Europe during the 30s) Sadly, I fear Carol is right - though not due merely to economic reasons. Somewhat perversely, the very thing which well-intentioned politicians worked for for decades - the removal of a global strategic threat in the form of the USSR + the establishment of a cooperative European system - this "success" allows those national politicians desperate for power to risk long-term national and regional interests for their personal short-term gain. If the former Yugoslav states were facing a serious strategic threat from, say, an expansionist Turkey (as indeed they did for 800-900 years) does anyone really think that Mak or Montenegro would break away from Serbia (or be allowed to)? Could Croatia possibly stay out of a Balkan alliance in that case? Of course not - Croatia is not a natural organic entity in the sense that there is no way it has the economic power or population to defend its current (absurdly long) borders without the protection from an alliance - first and foremost with its neighbours. But the very protective umbrella that provides that (seemingly long-term*) peace allows demagogues to germinate and flourish - and if that is not happening in Croatia, you don't have to look very far from Zagreb to see countries where it is. * The Nato umbrella will last, one hopes, at least until the USA economy, or political will, fades, and some political demogogue there decides the country can't afford to subsidise the good life lived by their European allies. I hope I'm not alive to see that, because if/when Nato disintegrates, I fear we can expect serious geo-political upheavals. kesterj
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Post by Madgolfer on Nov 21, 2012 10:45:41 GMT 1
And now this;
The Croatian Embassy in the Serbian capital Belgrade has issued a warning to Croatian citizens: If you’re coming to Serbia, be very careful.
The embassy issued a statement announcing that surveillance of Croatian buildings and people has been stepped up, in light of the turbulent reaction to the liberation of Croatian Generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac.
“Given the media hype that has appeared in the Serbian media, is very difficult to say how and in what way will it will affect the behavior of all those radical groups that exist here. It’s hard for me to say yes or no with regards to travelling here. Travel perhaps, but with great caution,” said Croatian Ambassador to Serbia Zeljko Kupresak, reported dnevnik.hr.
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Post by newhere on Nov 22, 2012 9:24:14 GMT 1
oh dear, this thing just aint gonna go away is it?...just crossing fingers that it dont escalate!
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