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Post by Mirko1 on Feb 28, 2005 21:11:58 GMT 1
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Post by Three Lions on Feb 28, 2005 21:24:53 GMT 1
Looks like the nationalists will get the upper hand again
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Post by faux pas on Feb 28, 2005 22:41:22 GMT 1
Less then 50 % of Croatian population are interested in the EU. They probably had enough of the Foreign office being paid for arguing the same thing all over again in the past 8 years: will Croatia meet the "conditions" or not; now adding, is Gotovina in Croatia or not, instead of defending Croatia and her honour against false accusations. And when I look at that interview where there's no one singe new idea about the facts, just that lazy colourless rethoric as usual I don't wonder a tiny bit we don't want the EU any longer; we're in Europe anyhow  |
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Post by Three Lions on Mar 1, 2005 0:26:25 GMT 1
What are they interested in?
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Post by fau on Mar 1, 2005 1:23:01 GMT 1
Don't know. Know just what they're not interested in from Zagreb's Vecernji List's survey showing only 47% support EU (lowest ever).
Information wasn't well received in Bruxel.
We can expect the next condition for Croatia's EU membereship will be no surveys in Croatia.
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Post by Three Lions on Mar 1, 2005 1:55:35 GMT 1
Croatians then see themselves as being in Europe but not having any sense of being "European," in say the way the French or Spanish do. There is a limit to which they can stretch this ideal and I suspect that Croatians are already bored of it, especially if these surveys are already showing a downward trend.
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Post by faux pas on Mar 1, 2005 18:47:06 GMT 1
French, Spanish, as well as all other members of the EU preserve their national identity in the EU. They're still French, Spanish etc. who emphasise their language, culture, history, heritage and so on as a contribution to the EU, not as a radical concession in favour of some artificial EU identity.
If the Croats are to be an exception to the rule, and only to be ruled, they still can be "European" but they cannot stop being Croatian who also rule.
What the EU is demanding from Croatia is equal to dissolution of her foundations. Croatia as such would be a poor partner to anyone, so what exactly the EU wants from Croatia is totally unclear, and subject of our deep concern. Obviously that's what 53% of the Croats realised something's wrong with all that EU talk, and this figure will only grow as the EU attempts to disfigure all that's worth about Croatia.... Which may well be also the fault of many Croatian representatives who continuously fail to bring up pro-Croatian views before the EU -- all they do is defending and securing their own roles but not the role of Croatia in the EU.
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Post by star on Mar 1, 2005 22:37:40 GMT 1
A croat on another board wrote about his distrust of the EU which I think exemplifies many other croatians concerns:
Can we trust EU?
1. - Arms embargo was implemented on unarmed Croatia, when Croatia was attacked by 3rd Military European Power, thus denying Croatia to defend itself!
2. - EU did not stop Serbian military aggression on just newly democratically formed state of Croatia!
3. - ICTY Court in Haag distorting the truth of the war in Ex-Yu state, where the victim is equalized with aggressor and war criminals:
a) Biljana Plavsic Head of "Rep. Srpska" who admitted her participation in organization and execution of genocide in Bosnia (200,000 killed, massacred and raped) sentenced to 11 years'
imprisonment.
b) Pavle Strugar, Yugoslav Peoples' Army gen. for artillery shelling of the historic Old Town of Dubrovnik (UNESCO protected) with hundreds civilian casualties, sentenced to 8 years' imprisonment.
c) Dario Kordic, Croatian, for his "command responsibility" in successfully defending encircled Croatian minority in Bosnia - 25 years' imprisonment !
[/b]d) Ante Gotovina[/b], Croatian gen. is accused based on knowingly forged documents for the crimes he never committed. Knowing this, Haag's prosecutors are still pursing him as an accused criminal on the run, denying him possibility to speak to them as a free man.
4. - S. Milosevic, Pres. of Serbia, the main criminal case, who has been in Haag's Court since June 2001 defending himself, looks more like an no ending theater comedy then real Court of Justice.
Why and what is Court in Haag waiting for, to step in and act as an authority of justice that pretends to be? Perhaps this authority is only reserved for the victims of this greatest crime of this century?
Croatians, the victims of aggression and now the victims of judicial system in Haag - Shame for this civilized World !
[/i]
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Post by faux pas on Mar 3, 2005 3:59:03 GMT 1
3. - ICTY Court in Haag distorting the truth of the war in Ex-Yu state, where the victim is equalized with aggressor and war criminals:
------------------------------------------------------
in addition to the above, read this:
"On the Croatian side there were 7,138 civilians killed. That was one of the rare wars, and perhaps the only one, in which more civilans than soldiers were killed. Because the strategy of the (Serbian) enemy was to besiege the cities and kill. At the same time, on the Serbian side were 162 civilans killed. Can we compare this?" - Dr Andrija Hebrang
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 3, 2005 5:53:06 GMT 1
3. - ICTY Court in Haag distorting the truth of the war in Ex-Yu state, where the victim is equalized with aggressor and war criminals: ------------------------------------------------------ in addition to the above, read this: "On the Croatian side there were 7,138 civilians killed. That was one of the rare wars, and perhaps the only one, in which more civilans than soldiers were killed. Because the strategy of the (Serbian) enemy was to besiege the cities and kill. At the same time, on the Serbian side were 162 civilans killed. Can we compare this?" - Dr Andrija Hebrang We are very naive. We still se things true "love and hate", and "good and evil". And politics is everything except this ... If you plan to gain something good for you ... play bad ... but paint it in gray first (not last) .... We must finaly understand that EU is not measuring us with some "devine" measures. They act towards us with knowledge about - how they will act in same situation. This is basic principle of EU (taken from USA) - don't let others act same as you will in exact situation, if you haven't choosed "playground". Positive sides of this are - by accepting thier political "evil side" EU countries are insuring political stability and peace inside "cirle of trust". But politicaly science proved that in such situations - this same "restricted political agression" needs to be chanalised somewhere. USA finded ventile on Midle East, and EU choosed Balcans for same purposes. Of course we are bad, corrupted etc. etc. We are everything we are supposed to be. And we will become even worse if EU start suspecting that something is wrong with it's own political mechanisms. We are nothing but laboratory rats from 1990. until now. Only change is that we become "less flexible" for experimentations, so we need some "refreshing" under new "conditions". We should finaly start learning from EU and USA and take best from it - for ourselves. But first, we must learn how to paint things in grey, aproach enemy with bigest smile possible, never show emotions in international politics and never "bark" if we haven't prepared "last bite" which will hurt most, and NEVER EVER depend only on ourselves (remember G.J.Cesar. - "divide and conquer"). We will have enough "free time" from 17th. to finaly start learning. |
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 3, 2005 9:54:24 GMT 1
Old guest, the sad thing about Croatia is there are a lot of open minded intelligent people like you, but they don't have the power, I would guess that you are fairly young, so how long will Croatia have to wait until more proactive forward thinking Croats are in power. 20 years?
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Post by Forward thinking on Mar 3, 2005 20:15:56 GMT 1
There are plenty of Croatian that think forward and want the best for Croatia but we are bound by sticky tape, we are slowly pulling each piece off. It is taking time.
Most Croatians are not backward hill billy as some Countries try to make it sound like we are. We unfortunately have a minority of bad people that are running the majority of people in our country. Things will change and they will change slowly. Just like change goes slowly for all other countries. Take America for example they just got rid of segregation in communitys in the late 60's. Australia same thing.
Our government will change but with time.
I think Croatia has its problems but I do believe other countries are much farther behind than us. I don't want that to be an excuse but it is a fact.
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Post by irac on Mar 3, 2005 21:21:47 GMT 1
Faorward thinking, sure, Saudi Arabia is a lot less advanced, in the personal freedom side of thigns, but comparing countries is not going to work or make progress. If one was going to be truly honest, then Croatia would be up for a lot more than simply a slap on the wrist for the Oluja and it's aftermath. The disgraceful behaviour of "armed forces" against Bosnian Muslims when Croatia was actually occupied was and is remains a craw that sticks in the throats of many in Bosnia. That Croatia and Serbia, through their respecitve warmongers (one dead the other in Holland), shook hands on dividing up a thrid country is a further shame, anyone recall Hitler and Stalin and the case of Poland?
A main fear of going into the EU is of being submerged into a great superstate, but, we already are! Go to a local store and see what's on the shelves? What soft drink did you last imbibe? When it comes to beer, are there any independent breweries left? And hey, before anyone goes off on how statistics claim this and that, remember the old adage, and I found it completely true when working with Irish Central States office "Lies, d**n lies and statistics" All survey depend on how the questions and phrased, why they're phrased as they are and why the survey is set up in the first place.
"Do you agree that Croatia should hand over it's power to a European Union Superstate?"
Answer: .......................
Oh, and in case anyone's interested, the Irish "national" drink, Guinness, is owned by an Italian multi-national!
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 3, 2005 21:39:28 GMT 1
“We unfortunately have a minority of bad people that are running the majority of people in our country.”
This may or may not be true, personally I think there a few issues, very corrupt people are attracted to politics here as it is the best way to become rich.
There is also a huge divide between the young people and older people in Croatia, this difference is not so noticeable when an individual has lived outside of Croatia.
Communism has left its scars, and for many communism/som was the way of life for so long that, that is all they know. They are out for only themselves and treat anything foreign was suspicion.
This is sad, but in my opinion is hindering Croatia's development, as I have said many times, as a blank canvas Croatia is a perfect country, but if you have the wrong people at the control of your vessel, it wont go anywhere.
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Post by AAC on Mar 3, 2005 23:18:43 GMT 1
Are the differences really between young and old or are they also between rural vs. urban mentalities? In general, urban populations in any country are more proactive, flexible about change, and easily influenced by the "news or trend of the day". People that live in more rural regions tend to be more skeptical about changes, drastic or otherwise. Not to say urban dwellers are more forward thinking rather that the tempo of their daily lives reflect their politics. Certainly Croatia is much smaller, geographically speaking, than the the US but if you use the last US presidential elections to look at political differences between Urban and Rural populations I think my argument will stand. Most advocates of immediate and drastic change came from the perimeters of the US where the larger cities are.
As for corruption, in my opinion its an acceptance of status quo more than it is a state of life. Without motivation and clear rewards for breaking those patterns, corruption will always dig in deep and prosper.
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