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Post by faux pas on Mar 4, 2005 2:26:32 GMT 1
irac, While I'm sad about what happened to the Muslims in Bosnia (Srebrenica) (and also to the Croats who were torn between the Serbian and Muslim attcts -as the only side just defending itself, and unclear Zagreb/Sarajevo politics) you shouldn't consider them as the saints, because of their leadership that sided a bit with Milosevic; then a larger bit with mujahedins, th causes of which clearly reflects in their former leader Izetbhovic views on Islamisation of Bosnia: www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/Islamic_Declaration_1990_reprint_English.pdf
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Post by irac on Mar 4, 2005 19:55:51 GMT 1
I think you must remember that the mujahaddins, some of whom I met in Saudi Arabia, were called to arms, having defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan, in defence of their Mujslim brothers. Because of the stupidity of Zagreb and Belgrade they have islamised and unleashed a really bad case of Saudi backed religion into EUrope. Nobody was a saint in the war, but in terms of unaccounted for incidents, the Croats have been to the forefront. From the disgraceful behaviour of the 2nd army group to arrive in 1995 (from those who were there the 1st army group behaved, largely, as a humane and ordered force of liberation), to the kidnapping and murder of young Bosnian muslim boys and girls on the Croatian border, they are now paying the price as the EU tries to appease all and satisfy none.
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 4:35:25 GMT 1
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Post by irac on Mar 5, 2005 8:14:33 GMT 1
Interesting article, but I don't get your point? Are you trying to whitewash over Croat crimes in a neighbouring country? It's dangerous territory, just as if the Republic of Ireland army invaded Northern Ireland because of Catholic sufferings......it almost happened in '69 and later, but the point is, the people in that territory are no more like those living in the "home" nation than those oppressing them.
Can you produce anything related to Croatian, greater attrocities, from this period, in what was a separate sovereign state?
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 16:28:15 GMT 1
I'm new to this forum and I apologise I don't get your point either.
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Post by irac on Mar 5, 2005 17:04:17 GMT 1
the point is, why are you whitewashing over attrocities to back up one point, Croatian suffering, at the expense of other suffering? It seems a little unbalanced, one sided and a preamble to further problems, don't you think?
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 17:40:31 GMT 1
I see.... you're using heavy words to paintbrash your point. But you're wrong, I already brought up a credible viewpoint on the previous page:
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"On the Croatian side there were 7,138 civilians killed. That was one of the rare wars, and perhaps the only one, in which more civilans than soldiers were killed. Because the strategy of the (Serbian) enemy was to besiege the cities and kill. At the same time, on the Serbian side were 162 civilans killed. Can we compare this?" - Dr Andrija Hebrang
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As to "Croat crimes in a neighbouring country" - You're obviously not informed of Split Declaration signed in the war time between the Governments of BiH and Croatia under the patronage of the international community, or about the impact of Croatian operation on liberating the neighbouring country (BiH) through the joint efforts of HV, HVO, Armija BiH -- assisted by the US.
I can't assume unbalanced attitude of the tribunal in the Hague and force "atrocities" committed by the suffering side (like they tried in the case of Blaskic): that's what I call a dangerous unballanced approach fostering future problems because it's not even-handed but a clear sign of siding with the aggression party.
I don't know much about the Irish situation though (I'd think Irish is Irish be it in NI or Ireland or elsewhere), but Croatia has a constitutional duty to protect the constitutional ethnic group (Croats) in BiH, so we can't talk about "invading."
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Post by irac on Mar 5, 2005 17:59:42 GMT 1
So can the Mexican government invade the USA when a Mexican is attacked in downtown L.A.? It is this spurious nonsense that has been dragging countries down, the amount of Serbian casualties murdered in the war, according to the Hamlin Group, numbered well over 5,000 and included the 800+ murdered on the trek out of Croatia during Oluja. This number, of course, includes those killed by persistent and targeted attacked on the straggling civilian movement by Croat airplanes, but doesn't include those who died on the march including young children (6 alone from Knin) and old people from symptoms other than bullets and bombs.
By continuing to drag out the us and them argument will only further bog down matters and recycle hatred and fear. Isn't it time to move forward and take a lesson from ireland, where the government in the Republic have made it clear that they hold no constitutional claim to Northern ireland, that was passed by a referendum in case you missed it!
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 18:05:10 GMT 1
Perhaps dr Hebrang didn't incalculate the Serbs killed by their own leadership for opposing Milosevic's criminal entreprise across neighbouring countries - unlike your sources?
As to Ireland, that referendum must have taken place after 1969 when the alleged "invasion" almost happened like you say?
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 18:12:33 GMT 1
.... also I'm speaking of the duty not the claim here....
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Post by irac on Mar 5, 2005 18:20:42 GMT 1
I don't think they Slobodan was flying the planes or sitting in the Dinaric Alps taking potshots at peole. nor was it he who rampaged into Knin and the surrounding areas dragging those unable to move to their deaths and robbing houses regardless of the religion of the owners, or was it he?
In 1969 the people living in the Republic were against any invasion of the north and were trying to survive through a depressed economy that was bleeding people away daily.
Again, using statistics to uphold outmoded and unhelpful beliefs will only prevent the country from progressing. And maybe, seeing as you seem to go by statistics doled out by "independent" sources, you could take a straw poll of those in Croatia who see these brothers and sisters from Bosnia who now live within the confines of Croatia as little more than animals. It never ceases to amaze me how those people told by the unpunished war criminal tudjman to flock to Croatia for homes and jobs, and then, disgracefully reminiscent of that other dictator Ceaucescu, to breed and fill the landscape with little Croats, have been left stigmatised and generally neglected by those who preach Croatia against the world! Is it not just a little hypocritical?
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 18:31:00 GMT 1
well I'm a Bosnian Croat too and what I find hypocritical is that we're neglected by those who preach AGAINST Croatia in their empty "political" talks. But I agree, no such land as Bosnian no.... my Croatian Land in Bosnia..... that's why it was among the first that was occupied by British colonial power. THen what's the problem with the Republic/NI if the people are against "invastion" - they obviously respect the will of the people..... nothing wrong with being critical versus governmental policies as I just demonstrated above didnt I.....
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Post by irac on Mar 5, 2005 18:38:52 GMT 1
I don't understand what you're on about in regards to Ireland, and for governmental will, it's non-existent when money and power come into it, plus goading of outside influences.
if you're bosnian then you must realise the awful prejudice held against those who claim tracing the blood back to Croatian ancestors! Even when it comes to purchasing and building homes, there is an unwritten bias sent down from Zagreb, well, it goes against everyone, but surely those who were told that they were entering the gates of nirvana should at least be compensated for being ripped off.
Croatian land in Bosnia, another rather dangerous concept, and one that has many Croats up in anger as the krajina government in exile sits in Belgrade. Whose claims are right and whose are wrong? In Ireland there had to be a general accepting of the concept of being happy with what we have and live with one another, the nonsense now is electioneering, that excuse has passed in Croatia.
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Post by faux pas on Mar 5, 2005 18:42:42 GMT 1
I'm not speaking of "governmental will" - you probably misread something. But not to go too deep and wide into superficial talks, I'd just say that by no means can be dangerous to call my land Croatian. If I'm a Croat and own the land in Bosnia, I call it the way I like, it's my basic ownership right. Stop seeing danger just in all things Croatian as they are just.... Croatian.
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Mar 5, 2005 19:10:44 GMT 1
yeah... don't talk about dangerous things...
tito's henchman will come and get you...
joj, to je opasno
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