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Post by Ribaric on Mar 1, 2005 17:30:37 GMT 1
According to HRT, a new Croatian orthography ("Pravopis" in Croatian) is to be published. This seems to be nothing more than "linguistic cleansing" in that anything remotely foreign (vrlo, avion, bicikl) are to be removed and replaced by new made-up words or "reclaimed from history". This is the language "rule book" and is HUGE in both size and content.
Is there not more important things on which to spend tax money?
What does this say about the people who support doing this? Is language an indication of national identity or merely a tool for communication purposes?
I think this is a waste of tax payers money and makes Croatia look more like an nationalistic culture than I believe it really is.
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Post by star on Mar 1, 2005 19:26:24 GMT 1
No more nationalistic than the French who are doing the same thing. Just a couple years ago they changed the word "email" to "courier" because they didn't like the english form.
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 1, 2005 22:50:20 GMT 1
According to HRT, a new Croatian orthography ("Pravopis" in Croatian) is to be published. This seems to be nothing more than "linguistic cleansing" in that anything remotely foreign (vrlo, avion, bicikl) are to be removed and replaced by new made-up words or "reclaimed from history". This is the language "rule book" and is HUGE in both size and content. Is there not more important things on which to spend tax money? What does this say about the people who support doing this? Is language an indication of national identity or merely a tool for communication purposes? I think this is a waste of tax payers money and makes Croatia look more like an nationalistic culture than I believe it really is. Ribaric, I think you are little over reacting in wrong direction. Indeed there is political background for such intitiative, but it is not in about "wasting tax money". Croatian language needs ortography, especialy in context of Croatia entering EU (imagine problems of translations EU will have with one more "official language" ehich doesn't have writen official othography. This is just top of iceberg which follows real problems for Croatian culture without such official orthography. Other part of story, more political is that orthography (especialy - what "rooths" it should follow) is used for preasures made by right-wing academics on Sanader, giving new "arguments" for parainoias about "loosing national indentity" by entering EU, and about "conections with recent past" which they try to reestablish "true" orthography. So far, they don't have public or academic support. Unfortunately, it is again more about talking then working. |
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 2, 2005 13:26:37 GMT 1
You folks make some good points, indeed, the French have been re-inventing new words for a long time but the rest of the world (it seems to me) think it is a silly thing to do. My daughter lives in France and tells me that people simply ignore the new words.
I accept an orthography has a use, but there is already a long-established pravopis, why change it now? people use the language in the way that suits them, be that sto, sta or kaj. I don't think a new rule book will help.
New words come into languages all the time, I see HRT has a program called "red carpet", I get asked if will pay "sa kashom", I even read in the regional newspaper that Naomi Campbell was "na katvalku". Isn't this the way all living languages develop? Perhaps the pravopis would be much better if it reflected the language as it is used, follow the people rather than trying lead them. What do you think?
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 2, 2005 14:17:43 GMT 1
You folks make some good points, indeed, the French have been re-inventing new words for a long time but the rest of the world (it seems to me) think it is a silly thing to do. My daughter lives in France and tells me that people simply ignore the new words. I accept an orthography has a use, but there is already a long-established pravopis, why change it now? people use the language in the way that suits them, be that sto, sta or kaj. I don't think a new rule book will help. New words come into languages all the time, I see HRT has a program called "red carpet", I get asked if will pay "sa kashom", I even read in the regional newspaper that Naomi Campbell was "na katvalku". Isn't this the way all living languages develop? Perhaps the pravopis would be much better if it reflected the language as it is used, follow the people rather than trying lead them. What do you think? Well, it is more complicated then just finding place for localisms and/or foreign words ... Croatian ortography in way that it is following spoken language doesn't exsist, and it doesn't reflect lnguage used in literature and/or on streets. Need for ortography is not about "clensing" foreign words from language, then more about following trends in language which in case of Croatian was stoped somewhere in 1970s. "New fat book" won't teach anybody to speak "correctly", or prevent undeducated person to stay happy in their ignorance, or even "half educated" persons to keep "educating" public - via medias. It won't "send anybody to jail", or create gethos. Ortography is - necessery, because there are other areas of culture beyond "entertainment" and "sucess right from the street". So, I am talking about culture and education in general, and about it's positive sides. Will someone use his own language, or not use it at all - is not problem of ortography or academic institutions. |
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 2, 2005 16:06:36 GMT 1
Old guest, France, Hungary and Croatia are language facists, I actually didn't understand the importance attached to the lnaguage and idetity until recently.
Croatia has more important things to worry about than removing perfectly suitable words.
Everyday somebody seems to be involved in something to arouse national feeling, be it Gotovina, the Eu of the language.
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Post by Barba Jere on Mar 2, 2005 19:06:46 GMT 1
just to add that Norway did same.
100 years ago when Sweden and Norway separated their languages were rather simmilar and now.
Norway insists even on internationalisms to be translated in new Norwegaen.
Croatian had before in 90is some attempts by some linguist to be changed.
Please accept language as a living beeing that evolves all the time.
Serbs have so many turcisms (turkish words) in their language while we did not accept so many and we use more slavic ones.
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Post by croatianamerican on Mar 2, 2005 22:06:12 GMT 1
jezike se razvijaju svaki dan...
All languages are evolving at every moment of every day with each conversation from a linguistic perspective. My linguistics professor(in the US) spoke a sentence during class and followed with"no one has ever said that same sentence in exactly the same way".
I understand why Croatians identify with their language so much because my parents were Croatians living under Tito's Regime in O'le commi Yugo.
I agree that there are bigger things to worry about but everyone can speak whatever way they want. To reverse Tito's language cleansing 180 degrees and to be fanatical is probably a waste of time.
Look at "old english". its barely comprehensible. Languages change every day. ;D
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 3, 2005 0:27:49 GMT 1
Old guest, France, Hungary and Croatia are language facists, I actually didn't understand the importance attached to the lnaguage and idetity until recently. Croatia has more important things to worry about than removing perfectly suitable words. Everyday somebody seems to be involved in something to arouse national feeling, be it Gotovina, the Eu of the language. hehehe ... "language facists" ... tuff words ... Seriously, Croatian is very complicated language, and people have problems with it ... Literature is suffering, and translations on other languages ... Promotion of country true culture in nr.1, by my oppinion. So every help in this area is apreciated. I agree, there is more important things ... Only God knows what is important in this country ... Goverment putted all cards on EU membership ... population almost stoped breathing because EU membership ... and then on 17th we will officialy find out something what was obvious for years - NO NEGOTIATIONS AND NO MEMBERSHIP ... From this perspective all this EU sharade looks like more serious waste of time, nerves and money, then some big book nobody outside Croatia will understand anyway. But, instead of book ... we can get new "time limit" from EU ... and then ... watter in mouth, chips on tables ... and "rock and roll baby" ... until new ... "time limit" ... After all, we will be able to comunicate between each other, if nobody else fon't understand us. At least all radicals in Croatia and Serbia will be happy, together with Turkey ... I should start learning Turkish for advance ... God I will need another "unecessery fat books" again ... |
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 3, 2005 1:03:21 GMT 1
hehehe emiz, you opened my eyes with your observation ...
Indeed, idea about new "pravopis" could be connected with obvious fact that after EU "pulls back" on 17th. there will be 4 and half mil. of people released of burden with uncomfortably "empty mouth". Probably dissabe to speak (lets skip other details) for some time ... So, maybe they are just with lot of respect for peoples emotions - tacticaly exchanging "politicaly objective aproach - made in EU" with "linguistical aproach - made in Croatia" for filling same hole .
After all - size does metter. Both book and EU are huge looking from knees. ;D
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