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Post by Old Guest on Apr 20, 2005 13:07:38 GMT 1
Regardless of whether Miksic was a good choice or not, the perception of Croatia as a country would have improved. Miksic is a dynamic entrepreneur, his sheer presence and commercial links would have helped Croatia. Abroad, countries would have admired the appointment of such a man and it would have been an indication to many that Croatians wanted to put the past behind them and move forward economically and progressively. Of course that USA (and "partners") will "like" Croatia much better if we (by "our own will") installed their "protector" in power (just remember Serbian "Coca Cola man" - Panic). Sorry, no metter how some people try to paint Croatia in balck on this forum - I still don't care about vision someone who anyway doesn't care about anything, will have over me. I will never vote to make anybody abroad "happy" or to make his life "easier" while he is "busy by eating bigger apple's".
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Post by star on Apr 20, 2005 16:27:04 GMT 1
Old Guest, its that sort of attitude that is keeping Croatia down. Why can't Miksic have Croatia's best interest in heart without being America's "puppet"? At least he would open up the free market in Croatia.
Do you have any idea how many Croats in the diaspora would like to invest and open up businesses in Croatia? Almost all of them are blocked by government officials who wan't to protect their monopoly on the economy. Laws change every six months, creating instability which investors don't like. One businessman here in Canada tried to develop a major project in Zagreb but got ripped off and taken to the cleaners by government bureacrats. For obvious reasons he vowed never to do business there again until there is a real democracy. Not power sharing between a few political elite.
Communism has not gone away in Croatia, it just has a different name.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 20, 2005 17:02:57 GMT 1
Well Start, when guy who owns company in Germany, pay taxes there, his family lives there, and have open legal issues on German court - become president of USA, I will second same in Croatia.
Clear ?
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 20, 2005 17:08:43 GMT 1
there are alot of croatians from the diaspora who would invest over there....they left because of the corruption during Yugo and the smart one's aren't investing yet because they don't want to get ripped off...they worked hard for their money in the US and abroad and don't want to lose it to some communist traitors posing as "democratic" politicians in HR. Its too bad...not to mention that realestate is grossly inflated...and you have different prices for locals and foreigners which is just plane wrong.... thats OK...the Croatian Diaspora are living Fat and Happy abroad because they work hard, stick together, and they left not because they didn't love their country but got tired of bending over and getting screwed out of what they earned. Too bad for Croatia....I'm sure there are native croats who would spit on diaspora croats because they 1. left 2. are doing better financially 3.fill in the blank...I think most aren't like that but to those who are....you are a scum and a traitor to your people and country and should have died along with the stupid idea of communism. I think most croats though don't feel this way about the diaspora..at least i hope...as many came back to fight the war...and sent lots of money and all sorts of necessary items....medical supplies etc to help during the war... and guess where those medical supplies went??? they were being sold onh the streets of zagreb after a croatian american doctor sent medical supplies over there for the people!! I hope its only the minority over there that are SCUM like that. Stealing and selling off medical supplies intended for the people during the war in 91-95 on the street instead of giving it to the needy. Those are your stupid filthy politicians...they deserve to be killed Ustashe style...So if you don't like the diaspora then f**k off! We helped you during Yugo, during the War and Now! At least our friends and families appreciate us...
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 20, 2005 17:12:09 GMT 1
... and after all, he was participationg on elections, and lost. So what are you trying to prove ?
Croatia, doesn't need elections because Miksic is perfect one, so why to bother ?
Well, if comunism is exclusive iner-Croatian thing (how you describe it), then outer-Croatian menthality is mostly revitalising NDH and "ustashas". So, if I need to choose between "trabsformed comunists", and "not so transformed fashists" ... not some choice unfortunately, but since I must choose - I choose first one.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 20, 2005 17:19:02 GMT 1
Croam ... nobody is "spiting" on diaspora.
Economicaly, Croatian diaspora has intergrated in west democracy systems. But politicaly, their perception over Croatia is still in phase "good God trusting nationalist ("ustashas") fighting bad commies (rest)), and this are facts.
I am not judging anybody or speaking in general, but many "returned businessman" from diaspora (and I sow then more then few) hanged picture of Ante Pavelic and "historic Croatia" above his head.
It is said thing, that cominists in Croatia conected anti-fashism with themselves, so suddenly "fashists" become "good guys", just because they oppose comunists.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 20, 2005 17:43:54 GMT 1
...So if you don't like the diaspora then off! We helped you during Yugo, during the War and Now! At least our friends and families appreciate us... Well, I don't know any Croatian family without parts of it living in diaspora ... For example in my family 80 percent lives outside Croatia ... So, you obviously don't understand one important political issue here ... Same as in Croatia, you have majority of people under political gang ... In diaspora, political organisations of Croats was mostly extremly nationalistic and had romantic view over NDH period and ustashas ... This was "political organisations", and they supported Tudjman and participated in his goverment. And since we talked about Miksic, I sow person with political ambitions, and not "Croat for diaspora" who "suddenly" returned and get flushed by dirty commies (he knew Tudjman very well) ... But forget Miksic. So, Croats from diaspora and Croats living in Croatia never had problems or there was any anthagonisms between them. But political organisations from diaspora had strong influence on todays Croatias political system, because of many reasons, and you can't look at them as "distanced". Half of Tudjamns goverment and prime ministers during war was politicaly influential Croats from diaspora. Have you voted for them to represent you, or I did ? So, it is pointless to talk about Croats from diaspora and Croats living in croatia in terms of, fighting. We have only one fight, and it is internal ... how to remove this "special breed" gang (half comunists/half fashists) from politics. Just, none variation of "same material" (as Muksic is) just dressed in better suit - I am not buying. Okay ?
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 20, 2005 23:14:37 GMT 1
you are absolutely right...but it works both ways...the communists are all of a sudden "the good guys" because they are anti-fascist. This is the classic red herring. Set a fire in the distance and say hey look! and then trick people right under their noses(poorly written metaphor). We are in agreement OldGuest.
I wonder why so many diaspora lean nationalist? Perhaps its from the feeling of helplessness they felt watching their country go up in flames while they were unable to stop it from happening. I Don't know how large of a group of people there are outside of Croatia leaning one way or the other. I think its alot less organized than you think politically. BUT...propoganda is in full swing and works wonders...you don't need people on the ground to influence the masses you just need to own a few news stations and have media contacts. Alot of Croats watch croatian news daily outside of croatia...believe it or not theres a channel called SCOLA...you have to pay for it on cable(your version of satellite pay channels)...ANYWAYS...they watch it everydays...my parents have been glued EVERY DAY they are home for at least 15 years or however long its been on. So think about that...five days a week at an hour...5 hours a week of propoganda coming from Croatia! and thats just on one news channel. Its stupid, but it works...just like the two party system in America(democrats or republicans are the two big partys...the other ones are completely non-existent or impotent...no influence). The two party system or painting a picture as black or white does one thing: DIVIDES THE PEOPLE. Sadly, DIVIDE AND CONQUER is what's going on...and its going on EVERYWHERE. Too bad..cuz i hate fascists and communists....
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 21, 2005 12:53:59 GMT 1
Croam, I am everything except communsits supporter, but you must understand something ...
Today, you can't find communists in their natural form in Croatia. Maybe they are some on political borders, but as you more go to political center (and higher in political power) you will find this speacialy "(c) Multipractical Croatian polititian". Someone who is "for everything", but mostly values he shares with resto of the world are "forced". And in background of his political menthal engine are - "self promotion, material benefits, and tribal menthality" ... So anti-fashism as something international (especialy - multinational, and even -anational in some cases) for his brain is completly strange.
Croatian polititian basicaly support anti-fashism as long it is on level of "verbal phrase", and doesn't put NDH and ustashes unter bigger question then "yes, in some parts it was not okay". But on direct question "Who lead anti-fashist movement in Croatia, and what was name of Army fighting agains Germans", you will not get direct answer (there was terrible fight about this in parliament week ago, and if prime minister did't enetered and cuted it ... ).
Indeed Communist party started anti-fashist movement in Croatia (it was first organized anti-fashist and anti-nazi movement in Europe), and this was possible because of many reasons, and most important one is - nationalism.
All regional fashisms functioned on principles "good nation - bad nation", and only opportunity for "bad nation" under circumstances was to - shut up and accept to be butchered ...
Partisan movememnt, lead by communists was supportive to all nations ... so it was only "safe heaven" in wider region for ll nations.
Fact is, that it was started by Croats, togeteher with Croatian Serbs - fighting against NDH, and Italy. It's motives wasn't political. It was organized millitary movement against fashists with goal to form dmocratic Croatia after WW2.
Latter it spreaded on whole terrirory of ex. Yougoslavia, and changed alot, and in some form on the end of the was it become sort of "organised revenge", and lost almost all influential supporters which created it in fist place (Tito mostly removed them from politic after ww2).
Influence of communist party was growing as 1945 was aproaching and Stalins Red Army was closer to borders of Yugoslavia. People was facing few facts - Croatian fashists was defeated by partisans, same as all other fashist supporters, and Royalist was collaborating with nazis in name of "anti-comunism", and they was offered as "democratic solution" from Britain. So intention to have real democratic elections after ww2 failed at start, and Titio gave all power to communist party under two at that time "relevant" excuses - 1. Britain will return king and establish again Yougoslavian kingdom (something that "prepared" and generatel all this nationalistic hate for ww2 situation), and on other side there was Stalin with his concept of "international communism established by blood".
Tito allowing royalists to participate in political life of Yugoslavia will 110 percent provoke Stalin to occupie Yugoslavia, it will return thing on same situation before ww2, and it was obvious that UK and USA will not do anything about it, then to applaude (because Stalin will have one country less). But both UK and USA wasn't willing to expose themself ito potential and direct conflict with Stalin ... Tito even tested this on Trieste, when Americans and British expelled him from North Italy after he just liberated it.
It was obvious for him that "he has no real friends", so he decided to use geo-strategical position of country and by blackmailing both block survive as long as he can ...
Other huge mistake he made was letting butchery over civilians on border with Austria when he letted revence over Croatian civilians and captured soldiers to hapens infront of British eyes, with two goals because of which he lost position he was able to get in history, and become war criminal and mass murderer -
1. To relese preassure from Serb nationalists who was sitting on two chairs, counting on kings returning as - still possible.
2. To show Britsh that he has Serbs under his comand and that King has no place to return. And that he is determined to "sacrifie" even his own people and every "civilised norm" to prevent it.
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Post by valiant 1 on Apr 25, 2005 8:52:58 GMT 1
what about the croats and their familys , who move here to croatia. leave all they have behind , sell everything. come to croatia , invest all their money and their family and in the end ...ripped off!!!! yeah . ripped off!!! i will always vote for miksic and anyone like him. like i said ,, i know where hes coming from and the inetentions he has for croatia. ive been living here long enough to have seen the corruption and lived in a croatia where the laws are made up to disable ordinary people from moving foreward in anyway. beaurocracy that confuses investors, people in opcine who dont let investors do anything until they get their pockets filled with some money. just look at what mesic and sanader are doing haha . what are they doing??? nothing!!! laws are changing on a daily basis , taylor made to help the people in sabor and their close bum chums make more money. the newspapers and magazines in croatia are contolled by politicians to such an extent that its a laugh reading them. croatia is a corrupt to the core , wicked country. i know of many many people who have moved here from the diaspora and have been ripped off and their family security and stability has been shaken if not completely ruined. croatia should not be asking for foreign investment or for croats for the diaspora to return here. not only have they made it impossible to live here , they have made it a trap ...to get as much money off of you and leave you without the shirt on your back and anyway of ever being able to earn a new one. this suits home grown croats and their wicked mentality. who are basically mostly jelous. the commy ones anyway. people who dont give miksic their vote , or anyone , new and opeminded like him, with good intentions for this country and its people ...have absloutley no idea what they are missing out on.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 25, 2005 16:26:02 GMT 1
dont' worry...most of the croatians in the diaspora in the US have banded together in different areas...started their own business...credit unions...and have a huge network of croats so that they don't even need to make friends with anyone outside of the croatian community if they don't want to...except for business of course... They aren't idiots either...most of them left because there was no opportunity during the Yugo years....and during those years...when they were sending money, medical supplies, food, clothing etc to their relatives, they were getting screwed even then by croatias undercover commies....who call themselves croats...they should be sent to serbia or iraq those traitors...medicals supplies sent from the US diaspora ending up on the streets of zagreb to be sold while their people went without. We will invest when your politicians get rid of the red tape which lines their pockets. We've already invested here in america and are making way more money doing business and on realestate investments than you can over there.... you have two prices over there on property: one for locals and one for foreigners... how nice of you...we aren't stupid....we've been at this game longer than you and know all the tricks....both the old yugo tricks and your standard business tricks... I'm sorry you got screwed Valiant. Its terrible you got screwed after going back to the mother land. If you can, leave for awhile and make some money somewhere else...oh wait a minute....someone will squat your house if you do and then claim its theirs when you come back(happened to us but they got theirs...bwahahahahahahaha...guess they ran out of kunas to battle it out in court...) I'm sorry Valiant...thats too bad what happened. Can you give us some examples of what happened so that we can spread the word about the scams and theivery?? Thanks.
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Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 25, 2005 21:59:06 GMT 1
I am sorry but the Croatians in America can be just as bad as the Croatians in Croatia with there little groups that stick together and only help their friends. I have seen it many times. If you are not part of the inner circle than you are on your own, NO help from other Croats.
I have some relatives that have big money and powerful connections. Do you think they help the little guy......Hell no! They are only out their to help themselves and these are my relatives....I don't need their help but I know other family members that could use their help but they don't even acknowledge these family members.
I tend to find Croatian Americans to be real big snobs. They all tend to want to keep up with the jones's. Who is who and who has got what $.
In Croatian halls and churchs there tends to always be power struggles.....
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 25, 2005 22:25:20 GMT 1
there are croats with money who don't play those stupid games and care about their status too.
Friends help friends. Just because your a native croat or heritage doesn't mean you and I are best friends all of a sudden. I think what your saying is true for the most part except that this isn't a croatian thing....its a people thing...people of all nations and backgrounds. Those who have alot want to keep it. If I make alot of money it doesn't all of a sudden obligate me to help every croat in my croatian hall or church. I'm lucky the rent's and my grandma who grew up in yugo know all the games....and i grew up here and know all the US games too...some of which they don't know but don't really need to...so i'm lucky i have a little wisdom from both cultures...Bottom Line": at the end of the day, most people are looking out for their own interests. There are generous croats too that you don't mention...that have helped out refugees and friends who came here from croatia during the war to escape misery. The very reason immigrants have clung together in numbers in America is because there is power in numbers. Its all about networking, but also it should be everyones goal to become self sufficient as well. That means help not welfare....some people just want welfare while they sit around or they feel its too beneath them to do other jobs
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Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 26, 2005 2:59:43 GMT 1
I understand what you are saying Croam but I think you must have misunderstood me.... I am talking about Croatians that are real snobs that help no one but themselves. The families I speak of are hardworking in Croatia but it is hard to make ends meet. You would think that the ones with all the cash in the U.S. would be helpful and send them money occasionally but guess who lands up sending money over to the relatives... the relatives in the USA that are just getting by themselves or happen to come into a little extra cash always seem to be the ones helping the Croatian relatives in Croatia.
I know alot of people that helped out during the war, sending money, food, guns and other things. What is funny is the families with the least amount of assets here in the USA contributed more than the ones with huge bank accts. It is trully selfish.
I do find that Croatians in America are more worried about there status and what assets they have then americans. I find alot of Croatians that can't really afford the BMW or Mercedes will suffer a little so they can look good to all their peers.
I find Croatians to be a bit VAIN.... even in Croatia people will buy some great clothes and jewelery and go with out in other area's of their life to look good to others.
I know someone that use to come to church on sundays with a limo... Alot of Croats when they do have money they want you to KNOW IT!
It is just an observation of mine, maybe I am wrong or maybe you see the same things I have.
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Post by valiant on Apr 26, 2005 11:46:49 GMT 1
when i moved to croatia from australia. nobody helped me. nobody cared or tried . in any way. they intentionally went out of their way to even avoid me maybe meeting friends or a girl . then you can imagine how it was for me getting a job here . or anything at all. but i know when croats come to australia , that the croatian community help them. they find work quickly. with the help of croats who have businesses in australia. and the social system in australia and helathcare system cannot be compared to anything in croatia. and that is a fact
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