midge
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Posts: 89
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Post by midge on Apr 29, 2005 22:42:36 GMT 1
I really don't know who was living better outside comunist-birocracy and military/police structures. Those same who started war after last "stabilisation" started to hit them on pockets too. Middle class, which is practically non-existing today.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 29, 2005 23:29:54 GMT 1
Middle class, which is practically non-existing today. There is only continuity in low living standard. Standard was never high in Croatia. Number or "economical emigrants" was even higher during Yugoslavia. "Middle class" in same enviroment and under same parameters comparable to west democracies never exsisted in Yugoslavia or in Croatia (during Yugoslavia). "Middle class" was synonim for "proletariat", or "working class" loyal to communist party, "educated for manufacturing needs" and "protected as labour" inside goverment controled economy (some call it "social policy"). Opposite to "economy emigration" which (because it weas "out of system") returning almost 25 percent of "convertibile incomes", supporting their families and directly influencing "middle class" standard. "Middle class" expired because it wasn't able to adjust on "free market", and collapse of economy model adjusted on making "cliring money", started before, and escalated during war. Yugoslavia and especialy Croatia (during Yugoslavia) and it's economy was completly depending on "cliring money" sort of "goods exhanging" (used instead of money) with Soviet Union and "non sorted" mostly non-developed countries (initialy created by Tito). Now, since nothing of that does exsist on political and geo-strategical maps of the world any more, I don't see how to return whole world on stage which will fit Yugoslavia to come back on scene and return "proleteriat" as measure of "social stability and security", because I don't see any of ex.Yugoslavian countries adjusting on "changed enviroment". Croatia is still doing best so far (after Slovenia). If anyone have need to compare economy in todays Croatia with ex. Yugoslavia, then one must find "measure standards" and "exsisting economy models" for it. Becuse, if Yugoslavia as it economicaly exsisted today enter political scene just to support return of "proletariat" (midle class), it will collaps very soon again ? Because, Soviet Union doesnt exsist, "Non sorted movement" doesn't exsist at all, Cuba doesnt have any political significance, Sadam Husein is not in power, Gadafi is ... who is Gadafi? ... Where will money come from, where will Yugoslavia sell weapons with "support of any superpower" ? What will Croatia do with same economy as it was during Yugoslavia in this completly different and new enviroment ? Even is something like this is still possible in dreams ... I don't know anyone who will agree to drive car only on "tuesday", wait in line to buy "detergent and coffe", and have no electricity until 2 PM to 7 AM each third day, and call it "1000 times better life", just because it is life in Yugoslavia, and not independent Croatia ... I am not defending economy in todays Croatia (far from this), but some real economy parameters are neccesery for such impossible comparations. Or lets stick to emotions, and leave economy alone.
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Apr 30, 2005 0:23:17 GMT 1
the currency(kuna) is much more stable than the dinar was in the 80's and you don't have to wait in line for food....or worry the store will run out. The main thing is the insane rate of currency deflation in the 80's...i remeber it well... large bills turned to play money in a years time.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 30, 2005 0:46:21 GMT 1
Old Guest, when you say living standards were not high, who are you benchmarking this comparison against.
Nobody will argue that living standards were lower than the US, UK and Western Europe, but it was far, far higher than those of other Eastern European neighbours such as Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic etc.
Croatia was the second most prosperous Yugoslav republic after Slovenia. In 1989, a report was drawn up by the EC (EC then, EU today), the report was a thorough analysis of all the Eastern European countries and the economic feasiblity of joining the EU. The conclusion by the report was that only two countries had the capabilities to seamlessly integrate with the then EC conditions - Yugoslavia and East Germany and concerns were expressed with East Germany.
I would ask that readers understand that i am not a communist or Yugoslav lover. I simply believe that it is easy for everyone on this forum to say Yugoslavia was an awful place where everyone starved to death and we suffered like the Polish, Hungarians and Czechs.
The truth is very different, we were well ahead of these countries entering the 1990's, had it not been for the war would anyone believe that Yugoslavia (Or a peaceful seperation - Croatia, Slovenia) would not have entered at least ten years ago?
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Post by Ribaric on Apr 30, 2005 0:51:55 GMT 1
Thank you Old Guest, your post is an object lesson to me - so I won't attempt to make comparisons where clearly this cannot be done, as you clearly say, things are not the same now and such comparisons are invalid.
I was reviewing the posts in an attempt to form some conclusions about this thread. I have to say, from the posts so far, few Croatian people want to integrate on any level. I will regard this as another lesson in my quest to understand this country. I sympathise and indeed empathise with you CroSerb but it seems you form a small minority and are likely to remain in this position for a considerable time.
My conclusion to the original question: NO, not in the foreseeable future.
My upbringing has been within a multi-cultural society, probably THE most multi-cultural city in the world. To me this has helped to make London a great city but it's history is very different from that of south-central Europe. I'm also a member of the dominant race so I've not experienced life as a minority. I'll need to learn and accept a new outlook as I'll be spending most of my time u Hrvatskoj.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 30, 2005 10:42:03 GMT 1
Well, Ribaric. I was talking about "Yugoslavia" and it's real meanings. Multi cultural enviroment is achiavable. Especialy in case of Croatia - it is necessery, and I see it developing. So I don't see CroatianSerb as minority without future. Not at all.
But, excluding Yugoslavia as political concept, doesn't exclude multiculural environment, and multicultural civile society at same time.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 30, 2005 10:45:32 GMT 1
Very well put Old Guest, couldnt have put it better myself. I am in no way advocating a return to Yugoslavia.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 30, 2005 11:05:31 GMT 1
CroatianSerb, I see it very hard to explain, somehow. Croatian Serbs are esence of civile society in Croatia for centuries. And this can't be mixed with Serbian interestest. Because Croatian culture is mutual for both. And at same time it doesn't mean that Croatian Serbs was "representatives of Serbias culture" inside culture.
This "myth" was premise on which last war started, and from which it exctrated it's "national motives". And because thath myth got accepted (such myth was "sounding cool" in Yugoslavia) - now we have "wide accepted" prejudices which prevents both Croats and Serbs keep developing together - inside Croatia, as they was developing for centuries.
Not because "Yugoslavia" was only for Croats and Serbs in Croatia, or because Croatian Serbs was "by foot" in Croatia, and "by heart" in Serbia. This was never fact. This is another myth created during last Yugoslavia.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 30, 2005 11:15:43 GMT 1
Croatia and Serbia was separated by historical events for centuries. Serbs in Croatia was also separated from "serbia" because of this same events, and not because of "national hate", or hate between "Serbia and Croatia" (in metter of fact Croatia and Serbia was never in war before this last war).
When civile society started to develop in Croatia, Serbs was already part of it. So, question is not "will Serbs reintegrate" again. Question is, are both Croats and Serbs able to keep "conituity" which was cuted because of two Yugoslavias and two wars.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 30, 2005 11:41:17 GMT 1
Old Guest the point you have made is the same one i have tried to express on this forum for quite some time. It gets lost on some people, especially diaspora who see everything as simple Croats and Serbs regardless of whether they are from Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia.
From a terrible and unecessary war, the Croatian Serbs have learnt one lesson and that is who to trust and who not to trust. At the same time many who fled to Serbia in 1995 told us stories of just how different Serbians are to Croatian Serbs, different culture, attitudes and without doubt - prejudices.
Any belief that Croatian Serbs would go to Serbia and integrate seamlessly with open arms was immediately destroyed. Only the hardline ones stayed in Serbia and the ones that couldnt cope with that fled abroad never to return. As such you should find that the great majority of the ones that have come back to Croatia just want to live in peace and put this whole horror behind them.
In the same way, the Bosnian Croats have found it difficult to integrate into ethnic Croatian Society, i have seen it myself in Knin and some of the things my friends have told me have amazed me.
Equally, I feel sorry for them, they expected to come to Croatia with open arms with homes available from the Serbs and now they struggle because they feel unwanted whilst at the same time not being able to go home.
The re-integration question i originally posed on this thread, was actually aimed more at Bosnia than Croatia. I would agree that in Croatia it is more a quesiton of "continuity" and i feel this will strengthen due to the countries stability today. At the same time, Croatian Serbs will move towards seeing Croatia as its own country rather than just ethnic Croatians and all ties with Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia will erode from the days of Yugoslavia.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 30, 2005 13:13:49 GMT 1
I agree, completly. As I see, here on this forum people don't have "insight" on Croatian culture, seeing it as - Croat exclusive, or "acceptable to Serbs" is best case. And this comes from both "foreigners" and "diaspora".
In terms of culture, Croats ans Croatian Serbs are "same body", and Yugoslavias as they exsisted wasn't "multicultural options for them to live together". They lived together and participated in Croatian culture and development of civile society from it's beginings.
Prejudices which came from last war that Croatian Serbs are just "Serbians abroad", and that Croatia is "not natural enviroment" for them if they don't share "same country" with Serbia and Serbians finded their place in peoples "knowledge base", and it is hard to remove them.
Unfortunately, this prejudices are accepted even by those which are supposed to help "civile society" development (I would rather say "re establishment"), but in real life they just help in creation of wider gap.
Croatia as enviroment for mutual development of culture is not "temporal solution" in case that Yugoslavia is not possible (Yugoslavia was never "solution" or realisation of something, it was always - compromise in terms of "domination") .
Croatia as it is (and as it was even during Yugoslavia), is historical and natural enviroment for both Croats and Croatian Serbs, and as long such enviroment is "forced" becaise of lack of knowledge or just plain ignorance, it will not bring any good for anybody.
Removeing any part (Croats or Croatian Serbs) of Croatias culture you will get - Croatian anathem without lyrics, or without music (because one is creation of Crotian Serb, and other of Croat), and it will never become "Serbian anathem", no metter what part get extracter. It can only be Croatian anathem, or no anathem. This was just little methapore, but I think majority of Croats and Croatian Serbs are indeed following it.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 30, 2005 17:12:17 GMT 1
Old Guest, very few people are even aware that Josip Runjanin, a Croatian Serbs composed the music for "Ljepa nasa domovina".
If you look all through history people have sought to create friction between Croatians and Croatian Serbs, even during the Austro-Hungarian empire. There were periods where both groups were united - under the command of Ban Jelacic and during the times of Stjepan Radic and Macek.
However, Serbia successfully drove a wedge between the two in during the late 80s to their benefit in the early 1990's. Stupidly, we sided with Serbians and now we have paid the price but learnt a lot.
We now need a period of real peace and stability, by communities will continue to come together and i really, passionately hope that Croatia can become what Yugoslavia should have become - a country where communities prosper together in a flourising, forward thinking country which is an example for the whole region - we deserve to be their, had it not been for war, Croatia would have been their a long time ago and i apologise for our peoples actions.
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Post by Ribaric on May 1, 2005 1:18:18 GMT 1
I am learning much from reading these posts. As a result of what you both have said and the fact that I am a "stranac", I have a question........
If Croats and Croatian-Serbs are similar in their outlook for civil life, why is there a distinction made between the two? Why do you call yourself "Croatian Serb"? What's are the differences between you and (for example) Old Guest?
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on May 1, 2005 1:48:38 GMT 1
Ribaric, we both have enormous similarities in culture and i would argue outlook. However, Serbs settled at a different time in Croatia, and as such maintain a slightly different culture in certain areas, the Serbs are also typically of Orthodox religion whereas Croatians tend to be Catholics.
It is perhaps the religion that has played a key role in the two differences of the country. You must understand that in Croatia, many Croatian Serbs carry ethnic Croatian surnames (Reasons can be controversial and are for another post - i for one am an example of this). The only way you could tell the difference between a Croatian and a Croatian Serb is by religion.
It has often been argued that Croatian Serbs can be defined as Orthodox Croats, I support this agrument since i see no issue with this definition but it is for the simple reason of certain minor differences in culture and faith between the two ethnic groups. However, certain peoples have misunderstood this to mean that we have an affiliation with Serbia and this is simply not true.
We may have originated from Serbia 900 or so years ago, many used this as a tool in the last war for plans to expland Serbia's territory, we did not all support this but unfortunately we went down this path and paid the price. Again unfortunately so did the ethnic Croatians for our actions - sorry.
I believe this war has reaffirmed that we have far more in common with the ethnic Croatians due to common history and other areas than the Serbians and Bosnian Serbs.
In the UK, English can be Church of England, Catholic, Muslim but you will often hear of English and British Muslims, English-Irish etc, so it is the same in this context.
Hope this helps, Old Guest may be able to provide further insight for you.
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Post by Old Guest on May 1, 2005 2:30:12 GMT 1
I am learning much from reading these posts. As a result of what you both have said and the fact that I am a "stranac", I have a question........ If Croats and Croatian-Serbs are similar in their outlook for civil life, why is there a distinction made between the two? Why do you call yourself "Croatian Serb"? What's are the differences between you and (for example) Old Guest? Okay, "my side" - outlook was similar (before Yugoslavias), then it wasn't (during Yugoslavias), and now it tends to get similar again (as both of us hope) ... During "first" Yugoslavia, Croatia as many other parts of country was populated with millitary and police personel from Serbia loyal to Serbian king. They kept tradition of "resisting to anything Croatian until today". And from their tradition comes idea about "two eyes in head" in which Serbs naively beleved before and during last war, and it costed them alot. During WW2, while Croatian fashists (brought in power by Italy and Germany) was trying to exterminate (or convert) Orthodox population (together with Jews and Gypsy's), majority of Croats and Orthodox started resistance to defeat fashists. On other side "monarchists" (recruited from ex. Yugoslavian millitary and police) started "chetnik" movement colaborating with Italy and Croatian fashists (not all of them, of course). Since Tito needed "experienced police" after war, and "monarchists under control" (I explained this before) he gave them opportunity to become "partisans" at 1944-45. (with 2 whitnesses). After WW2, to make "national mess even bigger", and because of weird approach comunists had on religion, Orthodox population in Croatia become "registered" as - Serbs (so comunists can make distinction on more "serious basis" then just - religious. In same "package" of "national inventions", Muslims in Bosnia become - nation (during WW2 mostly they declared themselves as Croat Muslims). For "non religious cases" they prepared "special mark" - Yugoslavian. And to make "statistics" even more fun, for chatolics living outside Croatia (In Serbia and Vojvodina), they invented special nation - "Bunjevac". I bet now it sounds even more confussing, hehehe.
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