|
Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 25, 2005 0:21:12 GMT 1
Star i honestly dont know what the radical solution would be, its difficult because it is a real mess!
My original belief would have been that it would be best for the country to be divided into two with the muslims forming a minority within Croatia and Serbia. However, this is something that they would never agree to, especially since they now have a country of their own.
It is not fair on the Croats and Serbs that Bosnia is considered and becomes a muslim country. I am not anti-islamic but these peoples lived peacefully as a minority in Yugoslavia for forty-five years and now have there own country thanks to the right to self determination.
I do not believe that a Croat-muslim federation is a viable future solution, they were forced together at a time when the Bosnian Croats wanted to join Croatia proper and the relations between the two appear to be creating two mini states within the federation.
Any ideas as to how the country can really be resolved peacefully?
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 25, 2005 0:31:44 GMT 1
Responding to CroSerb's remarks about "hardening views". I too have formed a viewpoint that I find difficult to accept morally but, at thre same time, I cannot see pragmatic alternative solutions.
Why do I think this? I have singularly failed to identify a state where true multi-culturalsim works, at least not at street level. I wish I could, for I believe that success would mean the probable end of conflicts among peoples.
If I accept this failure, then how else can conflicts be avoided other than by segregation? Israel builds itself a wall (not the first of course) and others have tried what is now known as ethnic cleansing.
Not pretty is it. irac makes good points about the role of faith teachings and that everyone ought to be able to co-exist, it just seems to me that history dictates that it's not going to happen. This is a bit depressing and is the reason some folks seek out obscure cults.
So that's the only answer I've got for Bosnia, herd all the similar types into the same areas and build f*cking great walls around the lot of 'em. Then watch those who go brown in the sun demand independence from those with fair skin and freckles.
I've never trusted those freckly types....shifty devils, they eat babies y'know
|
|
|
Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 28, 2005 11:29:31 GMT 1
Ribaric, i have hard a really hard time trying to come to conclusions whether to argue the point of ethnic segregation into states or cantons is correct.
I do believe in different groups living in the same country but in terms of Bosnia this is difficult and it is failing.
My view is more long term, by seperating the Bosnia into two or even three parts, the ethnic groups can co-exist in isolation, naturally over time they will reconcile and trade with each other and then the point maybe reached when the country can be truly integrated. However, if you look at the current solution, it would appear that it does not work from a short term perspective.
I think people's knee-jerk reaction in the west is that to seperate the country is barbaric and that everyone should co-exist etc, but the truth is somewhat different, with all the anomosity and genocide forcing these people together makes resentment even worse.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 28, 2005 17:43:38 GMT 1
I think people's knee-jerk reaction in the west is that to seperate the country is barbaric and that everyone should co-exist etc, but the truth is somewhat different, with all the anomosity and genocide forcing these people together makes resentment even worse. I agree. I don't think it is fair but they need to separate. I think with time things will tone down and people will get back to living. I hope. What other choice do you have if you keep them together the fighting will never stop. The only other senario I see is that in the future after separating them one becomes unhappy with what they have and decides to take what the other has and then again you are back to where you started. This is one big ty mess.
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 28, 2005 23:53:46 GMT 1
We're risking being called racist nazis...or any of the other regularly names. I do agree with you folks, if people can't live together without violence or attempts by one side to dominate or subjugate the other - then separation is the logical answer. There's never going to be agreement on borders but that's part of life. Most of Croatia's borders, it could be argued (by Italy, Hungary, Serbia etc) should be moved this way or that, but they are where they are and nobody seems ready to make a fight about it - thankfully!
My earlier point about "freckles" is that, even if groups are segregated to live only with like minded/ethnic neighbours, how long before divisions start to arise within the group? For example: Israel was conceived as a place for jews to live together, it now contains numerous sub-divisions within it's borders who really hate each other - enough for assassinations to happen. What next? 5 more little independent Israels within the greater Israel. Sooner or later, those freckly face jews will want a state of their own, they will invent a freckle-ometer to determine whether a person has sufficient freckles to be able to remain or be deported.
Where do we baldies go? I want an independent nation state for us....... and I'll fight to the death for it. I'll get dozens of bald suicide squads.....
Supposed someone is a bald, freckly hacidic jew?
The whole Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bosnian Croat, Bosnian Serb, Croatian Serb, Orthodox, Muslim Serb etc begins to look a bit silly to us foreigners. What about freckly bald orthodox Bosnian Croats? I hope I don't upset people with this, but you see my point?
|
|
|
Post by TipRatTipRat on Apr 29, 2005 0:01:43 GMT 1
No i dont see your point Croats are Croats Serbs are serbs Bosnains (ok thats a messed up)
Cros and serbs have a totaly different history, we only spend 50 years of our history togther in 1 country which obviously didnt work, we have different herritage, different culture, different language and alpabet.
Just so you know Croatia NEVER wanted to be part of yugoslavia
We are different people, just like any other country in europe, there are some similarities.....but just because we are next door to each other doesnt mean we are the same
TOTALY DIFFERENT PEOPLE IS THAT TO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
|
|
|
Post by divttp on Apr 29, 2005 5:07:00 GMT 1
Cros and serbs have a totaly different history, we only spend 50 years of our history togther in 1 country which obviously didnt work, we have different herritage, different culture, different language and alpabet. This is exactly the problem, neither Croatians nor Serbians truly want to coexist. Look at different countries: in the US, there are lots of major, dominant religions and different backgrounds, and much of this doesn't matter in daily life. Croatians and Serbians are beginning to integrate with marriages and similarities in modern culture. Sure, each family can honor their heritage, culture, and even language, but sooner or later, these will no longer define people as a whole. People can still live together, in the same cities and the same neighborhoods, but people can still go to their own church, celebrate their own holidays, and speak their own language.
|
|
|
Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 29, 2005 9:53:15 GMT 1
Ribaric, you must consider certain points when you say things can look quite silly. You are not offending me with this comment and i can understand your perspective.
You must understand that the history of the region is very different to that of the UK or any other Western European state (although Spain with basques is a differing example).
The history of the region has seen occupation of the Former Yugoslavia (Croatian, Bosnia, Serbia) by the Hugarians, Austrians, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ottomans, Italians, French (In certain parts) and even the British. These occupations bring migration and changing trends with each having their own policy.
Because of the fact that several in effect "fault lines" run through the region, you get people of the same religion but different history (Despite what Tiprat says - needs to have a read of some history books i think). For example, Croatians are not equally Croatians through history using broad grouping, the Croat catholics of Bosnia had a very different history to those of ethnic Croatians from Croatia, Croatia was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire while Croats from Bosnia were part of the Ottoman Empire.
This same example also applies to Serbs from Croatia in comparison to Serbs from Bosnia or Serbia. I hope this is making some sense, in effect and despite what many Croatian nationalists will say and try to justify - the Serbs from Croatia have a far more common history to ethnic Croatians than Bosnian Croats. This common history in areas where many were very mixed communities created a common culture between the two ethnic groups and this is why in areas such as Knin in Croatia today, many ethnic Croatians would rather the Croatian Serbs came back than have to live with the Bosnian Croats.
I am not saying this is right or wrong but these are the facts. I disagree with the comments of Dejan, since he believes that Croats and Serbs dont want to co-exist, i actually believe that people who have lived in mixed communities were far more culturally enriched, I am very grateful for having experienced Croatian culture and i continue to return to it. I am not alone in this way of thinking, I do not believe in a "Croatia for Croats", I have equal rights and would love to do more to help the country. And if you take the time to read through the history books you will find a fascinating history which shows that many times Serbs and Croats have fought together to try and defeat occupying forces in Croatia.
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 29, 2005 15:55:42 GMT 1
I'm not being well understood, I do not advocate a return to Jugoslavia. I don't disagree with any of you on this, but I must be using too many metaphors, my point seems to be lost. Let me have another go, in pure terms, it is this:
If people want to live together only in a group as defined by their ethnic, religeous and political similarities, then fine. Currently this is being advocated as separation for Croats, Serbs and Bosnians in what was once called Yugoslavia.
But I'm saying that it won't last. Sooner or later, there will be groups within the bigger group who will define themselves as being different (hence my example of the ever-dividing Israelis). How long before one group wants to be separated from the other group because they are different in some way and don't want to live with the others?
My metaphors are stupid (Bald and Freckles) but, in the end, that's what happens, things get stupid.
Another example is Iraq. You could say there are Shias, Sunnis, Christians, and Kurds. To take one of them - the Shias. They are split into 'pro-Sharia' and 'reformist' groups. The Pro-Sharia group is split into 'fundamentalist' and 'progressive groups'...and so it goes on.
I'm saying that Croatia isn't full of like-minded Croatians, there are communists, nationlists, Pro-Europeans, Pro Jugoslavs, Christian democrats, Catholics, jews, agnostics, Slavonians, Dalmations, rich, poor, birth control users, fat, bald, dark skinned, freckled............... it's does get stupid but true nonetheless
Bottom line: At what point is it sensible to put a stop to splitting up nations?
|
|
|
Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 29, 2005 16:46:05 GMT 1
Ribaric, i did understand where you were coming from, i was simply trying to justify how the current course of events have transpired and how people are today trying to destort these.
The destortion i take about is bringing them all under a common class called - Serbs, Croats, Bosnians (?) et cetera. As my previous post suggests this is very difficult.
In effect we are actually going the other way Ribaric, to the point where people are trying to group together rather than more seperate entities.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 29, 2005 17:37:53 GMT 1
I'm not being well understood, I do not advocate a return to Jugoslavia. I don't disagree with any of you on this, but I must be using too many metaphors, my point seems to be lost. Let me have another go, in pure terms, it is this: If people want to live together only in a group as defined by their ethnic, religeous and political similarities, then fine. Currently this is being advocated as separation for Croats, Serbs and Bosnians in what was once called Yugoslavia. But I'm saying that it won't last. Sooner or later, there will be groups within the bigger group who will define themselves as being different (hence my example of the ever-dividing Israelis). How long before one group wants to be separated from the other group because they are different in some way and don't want to live with the others? My metaphors are stupid (Bald and Freckles) but, in the end, that's what happens, things get stupid. Another example is Iraq. You could say there are Shias, Sunnis, Christians, and Kurds. To take one of them - the Shias. They are split into 'pro-Sharia' and 'reformist' groups. The Pro-Sharia group is split into 'fundamentalist' and 'progressive groups'...and so it goes on. I'm saying that Croatia isn't full of like-minded Croatians, there are communists, nationlists, Pro-Europeans, Pro Jugoslavs, Christian democrats, Catholics, jews, agnostics, Slavonians, Dalmations, rich, poor, birth control users, fat, bald, dark skinned, freckled............... it's does get stupid but true nonetheless Bottom line: At what point is it sensible to put a stop to splitting up nations? I agree Ribie.... I understand your posts perfectly. What you have posted has happened already and that is why we have had wars. You make perfect sense. I think majority of Croatians want a Croatian state with very little Serbs. Especially older Croatians that went thru hell with serbs. Most older folks have horrendous tales about what has happened to them in the past at the hands of the Serbs(before 1990's). I don't think you can change these peoples minds about living all together like a happy family.... they want no part of that. Younger people are more willing to live together and try.
|
|
|
Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 29, 2005 19:46:13 GMT 1
Ghost, a lot of Serbs in Croatia would prefer to have only Serbs who want to live in peace so dont think that Serbs want to just occupy the whole of Croatia, trust me this wont happen and their is no intention.
In terms of the older population, you must remember that in the 1990 elections, the Racan reformed communists did very well and Tudjman did not win my any significant margin, as such it is not fair to say most older Croats had terrible times with Serbs, if this was the case Tudjman would have won by a massive majority and the communists would have been swept aside, this was not the case.
Yes, i will not argue that for many Croatians it was very difficult in the days of Yugoslavia, if it had been fair for all then it would not have dismembered. But you must also remember that their are good and bad in every country and the living standards back then were enormously better than today.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 29, 2005 20:39:36 GMT 1
Ghost, a lot of Serbs in Croatia would prefer to have only Serbs who want to live in peace so dont think that Serbs want to just occupy the whole of Croatia, trust me this wont happen and their is no intention. In terms of the older population, you must remember that in the 1990 elections, the Racan reformed communists did very well and Tudjman did not win my any significant margin, as such it is not fair to say most older Croats had terrible times with Serbs, if this was the case Tudjman would have won by a massive majority and the communists would have been swept aside, this was not the case. Yes, i will not argue that for many Croatians it was very difficult in the days of Yugoslavia, if it had been fair for all then it would not have dismembered. But you must also remember that their are good and bad in every country and the living standards back then were enormously better than today. Living conditions were not always better in Yugo. The people that I speak of are the older generation, 60, 70, 80 year olds who had a terrible time in the 1940's. You are not going to change their mind. These people suffered tremendously. I believe things got financially better for people in the 1970's and 80's in Yugo but it still does not change their mind about having a Croatian state. I believe people today young and old are happy to have Croatia and would rather live today like it is then go back to a financially stable Yugo. I don't agree with the voting reflecting on what people feel. Do you think that there was much choice in the voting?
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 29, 2005 21:20:45 GMT 1
Ribaric, basicaly you are right ... But Yogoslavia is not and it was never "cornerstone" of Croatia exsisting in "wider asotiations".
Croatia itself has 2 gravitation points "Mediteranian and midle European", and 3rd (Balkan) was added much latter then first two.
In metter of fact "West Balkan and Balkan" as much it is mistified here (because of lack of some basic history knowledges) is product of "diplomacy and trade" relations established by Dubrovnik Republic, at times when including Serbia in European "trading streams" was much more opportune then keep counting on "soon to fall" Othoman Empire.
So, there is no "writen is stone" fact that Yugoslavia is "destiny" bonding Serbs and Croats ... As it never was anything more then just - interests.
Mostly, this interests wasn't changing from times of Dubrovnic Republic, and latter bishop Stroshmaier, And no metter was formed on idea of "south-slavenism" or "pan-slavenism", it always failed on "ideology basis", and stayed alive on "pragnatical basis" (sometimes because Serbs had better option in it, and sometimes because Croats did, never because - both did).
Basicaly, nothing here is, or ever was about "Yugoslavia", because each "Yugoslavia" was just historical period "between wars, caused by last war". And because ideas of "pan-slavienism and south-slavenism" don't exsist any more, Yugoslavia as Serb-Croat country is not ever possible.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 29, 2005 21:45:15 GMT 1
... and the living standards back then were enormously better than today. Do you have any figures to prove this in case of Croatia ? Try to compare numbers 10 years after WW2 with numbers 10 years after last war. There was shirt lasting perion of "economy growth" in mid 70's which ended in "stabilisation programs" one following other, huge inflation, frozen funds, electricity gas coffe detergents etc. restrictions. I really don't know who was living better outside comunist-birocracy and military/police structures. Those same who started war after last "stabilisation" started to hit them on pockets too.
|
|