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Post by star on May 5, 2005 22:40:05 GMT 1
I was wondering why the USA had been strangely silent on the whole Hague fiasco. Poor Croatia can't catch a break from anyone. From the Akron Beacon Journal:
Posted on Thu, May. 05, 2005
Croatia still opposes exemption of U.S. soldiers from war crimes prosecution
Associated Press
ZAGREB, Croatia - President Stipe Mesic told visiting U.S. Sen. George Voinovich his country still opposes Washington's request for U.S. troops to be exempt from prosecution before the International Criminal Court, his office said Thursday.
The court is the world's first permanent war crimes court, authorized to prosecute crimes in 97 countries which ratified its founding.
The United States opposes the court, claiming Americans could be subject to politically motivated prosecutions. It has asked countries around the world to sign a treaty that would shield U.S. troops from being extradited to the court, and has so far won agreement from about 100 of them.
Croatia refused to sign the treaty in 2003, a move that damaged relations between the two states and cost Croatia U.S. military assistance.
"The Croatian public will hardly accept to have citizens of another country being exempt from prosecution before an international court, while at the same time Croatia is required to extradite its own citizens" accused of war crimes, Mesic told Voinovich, R-Ohio.
Croatia is obliged to arrest and extradite its citizens for war crimes prosecution before a U.N. court.
The EU in March postponed the start of membership talks with Croatia because of that country's failure to hand over a fugitive war crimes suspect, Ante Gotovina, who is charged with wartime atrocities against the Serbs.
Voinovich, who has Croatian roots, came to Croatia on a two-day trip and is to visit his relatives living in central Croatia on Friday.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on May 6, 2005 10:33:15 GMT 1
I agree 100% with the position of Stipe Mesic, why should it be one rule for America and another one for everyone else? On top of that, what happens is practically bribery, if Croatia does not agree to the US request then it loses military aid and other types of economic assistance. This is a double edged sword, the EU will look favourably on the stance by Croatia whilst it will be detrimental to the US. I support this position, for as long as countries like the US think they can get away with anything they want and bully smaller countries the world will never have fair trade. We all know that the US would be worried because of actions in Vietnam and more recently Iraq, regardless of if they are politically motivated or not. On the 24th June last year, the US withdrew its request for a UN resolution to exlude US soldiers from prosecution due to a lack of support, particularly from Germany and Spain. The truth is that the US wants two laws - one for them and one for the rest of the world and they are not frightened to say it. For a more in depth look at this issue, i would ask that people view the link below, it is an old editorial from 2002 but it shows a lot in terms of different countries thinking and approachs. I for one applaud the bravery of Mesic, who wants "dirty" money if your morals are compromised? www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2002/07/mil-020703-wwwh2703.htm
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Post by Old Guest on May 6, 2005 11:04:09 GMT 1
Well, war crimes tribunal is "political court" (both - for ex.Yu and Ruanda plus International), and USA should know about it. But this is not question in Croatias case.
All this "games" around war crimes, courts and negotiations harmed EU's credibility more then USA's credibility. USA was never hiding it's intentions over Hague court, while EU "evertaked it " as "political weapon" after USA, and used it for dealing with "ex. partners in morality".
Croatia made huge mistake playing "game of morality" by "EU advices" at worse possible time. Now because of Mesics "sharp vision" Croatia has all of them USA, EU and Court on it's back, and no manuevering space at all.
Mesic (and Racan) wasn't elected to act as "Pope's above Pope" then to do what is best for Croatias long term interests. And inside of all possible options Mesic choosed - worse !!!!
He turned back to USA's clear interests, trusting that EU cares about "moral issues", while EU was just (it was obvious from the Moon) "covering itself in fog" because of Iraq.
Unfortunately now it too latte even for a** kissing. USA just left us to deal with EU on our own, so we can see real scales of EU's "unconditional love" towards Croatia.
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Post by star on May 6, 2005 15:12:32 GMT 1
I think it was a stupid move by Mesic. How likely is it that american soldiers would find themselves in Croatian custody anyways? Needless antagonism I say and pure communist mentality.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on May 6, 2005 17:56:32 GMT 1
There are two obvious viewpoints - one is economic and one is moral and very often the two do not relate.
If we put the EU to one side then morally Croatia was absolutely correct to take this viewpoint - Communism or no communism. However from an economic viewpoint it is damaging, depends on what priorities countries have.
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Post by Ghost Writer on May 6, 2005 20:50:44 GMT 1
Not to be rude but DUHHH! You are just figuring this out right now! U.S policy has alway been this way and will always be like this. Unless the world puts its foot down to USA but I doubt that will ever happen!
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Post by star on May 7, 2005 0:16:24 GMT 1
Not that I want to defend the US but they are absolutely right on this one. They have always been against the international court from the start. They realized back then that individuals or nations would use it for political purposes and not objective justice. I found this quote from the article that CSA posted humorous: One has only to look at the ICTY fiasco to see that the US's concerns are justified. Carla Del Ponte's latest outrage is about to be mercilessly attacked by the US according to Jeffrey Kuhner at the Washington Times: www.voiceofcroatia.net/WT.htm#CroatiasDemocracyonTrial
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on May 7, 2005 0:44:29 GMT 1
Ghost Writer, anybody who follows politics around the world knew a long time ago that the US has always sought one rule for them and another for everyone else.
I dont really care whether the US feels that the court will be used by individuals or nations, from a simplistic level if US soldiers commit crimes (and lets face it they are the most trigger happy nation in the world) then they should be held accountable, regardless of their nationality.
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Post by Ghost Writer on May 7, 2005 2:11:12 GMT 1
Ghost Writer, anybody who follows politics around the world knew a long time ago that the US has always sought one rule for them and another for everyone else. I dont really care whether the US feels that the court will be used by individuals or nations, from a simplistic level if US soldiers commit crimes (and lets face it they are the most trigger happy nation in the world) then they should be held accountable, regardless of their nationality. Yes I know that! Nothing has changed US always gets what it wants. That was my point. Rules for the US and rules for the rest of the world. I don't know why the world lets them get away with . I understand some countries that are dependent upon US aid or trade but if the world stuck together and put its foot down to some of the crap the USA pulls then maybe some of the worlds problems that are caused by the US would not be happening.
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Post by Old Guest on May 7, 2005 14:51:25 GMT 1
Interesting point. So since this is Croatian forum, let's put it other way ...
Fact is that none of problems in Croatias recent history wasn't cased by USA. USA has probably 1 percent of influence on Croatias politics, 1.5 percet on trading, 1 percent on millitary, and 0.8 percent in economy ...
So, when you speak about "world" dealing about troubles USA is causing. Where you see Croatia in all this ? Why is Croatia treated same way by EU as USA is treating Midlle East for example ? Is this USA's fault in any way ?
Fact is that EU was openly (Germany and France) "blackmailing" Croatia to not sign non-extraditiction article with USA, because it was "EU's policy" and if Croatia had intentions to enter EU, it must follow "same" agendas.
Of course, worse polititians in Universe (Croatian Social Democrats - or simple "cowards") obssesed with all kinds of fears, together with Mesic (who has better friends in Lybia and Moscow's city council, then in Croatia) was happy "to show muscles" to USA thinking "USA will not take them for serious, when even they don't take themselves for serious" ... This are facts, and not results of my "weekend sarcasic mood".
And now we somehow need to pick pieces of all this mess somehow, and reestablish good relationships with USA (this was better then with any EU country from times Croatia declared it's independence).
New govement, no metter what we think about it internaly, but simply is not able to do much, as long there is Mesic on Putins hotline whenever there is some important international issue.
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Post by star on May 7, 2005 16:09:22 GMT 1
I agree with you completely Old Guest. Mesic thinks that by kissing up to the EU, letting them dictate foreign policy, and throwing away your sovereignty by allowing foreign intelligence agencies to roam freely on your land, that the EU will somehow respect Croatia. That's not how things work in real life.
In real life a bully doesn't show any respect to someone who does whatever he wants. The opposite is true, the bully will hate him even more for being weak. Croatia did everything the EU wanted like a snivelling dog and got slapped in the face for it.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on May 7, 2005 18:12:28 GMT 1
Another question would be what is Croatia's relationship with countries like China? Lets face facts the US is a dying economic power, yes it is fair to say that at the moment it is the worlds only hyperpower but you must remember that economically it is ravaged in light of the recent war and lack of faith in the US stock market effecting the pound.
Whilst this is going China is becoming stronger and stronger and is set the be the worlds economic leader by 2050.
Surely planning for the future is also a good tactic?, the worlds bullying by the US will reach a point where it becomes nothing but an empty threat, it isnt there yet though.
The UK has recently found out that it is not always a good thing to blindly follow the US and do what it says, people on this forum could argue that this is what Croatia has done with the EU, but believe me it is no better off doing the same thing with the US. I distrust the US even more than the EU.
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Post by Ghost Writer on May 7, 2005 20:27:19 GMT 1
Interesting point. So since this is Croatian forum, let's put it other way ... Fact is that none of problems in Croatias recent history wasn't cased by USA. USA has probably 1 percent of influence on Croatias politics, 1.5 percet on trading, 1 percent on millitary, and 0.8 percent in economy ... So, when you speak about "world" dealing about troubles USA is causing. Where you see Croatia in all this ? Why is Croatia treated same way by EU as USA is treating Midlle East for example ? Is this USA's fault in any way ? Fact is that EU was openly (Germany and France) "blackmailing" Croatia to not sign non-extraditiction article with USA, because it was "EU's policy" and if Croatia had intentions to enter EU, it must follow "same" agendas. Of course, worse polititians in Universe (Croatian Social Democrats - or simple "cowards") obssesed with all kinds of fears, together with Mesic (who has better friends in Lybia and Moscow's city council, then in Croatia) was happy "to show muscles" to USA thinking "USA will not take them for serious, when even they don't take themselves for serious" ... This are facts, and not results of my "weekend sarcasic mood". And now we somehow need to pick pieces of all this mess somehow, and reestablish good relationships with USA (this was better then with any EU country from times Croatia declared it's independence). New govement, no metter what we think about it internaly, but simply is not able to do much, as long there is Mesic on Putins hotline whenever there is some important international issue. To tell the truth I was not thinking of Croatia when I wrote that. I was thinking about the war in Iraq and how they are holding another hostage(australian). My thoughts were why did Britian and others go along with the USA on Iraq? I agree with you guys.... Star/Croserb. Mesic and his ass kissing techniques will not work. He needs to stand up to the EU(Britian) and say we are not going to jump all these hoops like circus dogs. Eventually the EU will want Croatia in because we do have alot to offer. We have alot more to offer than stinky Romania!
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Post by Rib on May 8, 2005 17:33:19 GMT 1
There is a train of thought that says China's success depends almost entirely upon American consumer spending power to buy the goods it makes so cheaply. If America sneezes, China will catch pneumonia. It's own growing internal market would collapse in weeks. Croatia doesn't sell much to the US and would probably be largely unaffected (as compared to producing countries) if a recession hit the States. Does anyone know what % of Croatian exports are sent to the EU. I suspect it is most of it, if so, Croatia has a much greater interest in EU financial health.
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Post by star on May 17, 2005 19:55:53 GMT 1
Ouch! Jeffrey Kuhner of the washington times is livid at Mesic. Check out his response at mesic's refusal to sign the agreement:
Mesic’s Betrayal
By Jeffrey T. Kuhner
Croatian President Stipe Mesic has once again betrayed his country’s vital national interests. During a recent trip by U.S. Senator George Voinovich to Croatia, Mr. Mesic told the Ohio Republican that Zagreb still opposes Washington’s request for American troops to be exempt from prosecution before the International Criminal Court.
“The Croatian public will hardly accept to have citizens of another country being exempt from prosecution before an international court, while at the same time Croatia is required to extradite its own citizens” accused of war crimes to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, Mr. Mesic told Mr. Voinovich.
Washington rightly opposes the ICC because it will expose U.S. military officials to politically motivated prosecutions. The international court is the vehicle by which the anti-American Left hopes to harass U.S. officials through frivolous indictments. The goal of the pro-ICC globalists is to use international legal institutions as a means of curtailing American foreign policy.
A good example of this was the 2002 decision by a Belgian court to begin proceedings against U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks on charges of “command responsibility” for alleged war crimes committed by coalition forces in Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld threatened the Belgian government with the removal of NATO headquarters from Brussels unless the country amended its self-anointed law of “universal jurisdiction.” Only after intense pressure did the Belgians finally agree.
This is why the Bush administration is determined to have countries around the world—including Croatia—sign the Article 98 treaty that would shield U.S. troops from being extradited to the ICC. So far, Washington has secured agreement from about 100 nations.
It is an open secret in Washington that Zagreb’s refusal to sign Article 98 is the principal obstacle to Croatia’s entry into NATO. By failing to support the United States on an issue of such importance, the Croatian government has helped to alienate senior members of the Bush administration.
Zagreb’s diplomatic establishment fails to understand that American perceptions of the world have been dramatically altered by the 9/11 attacks. Washington is no longer wedded to the realist policies of the post-Cold War era, saliently reflected during the 1990s by its initial refusal to support the break-up of Yugoslavia or to stop the Serbs’ war of aggression against Croatia and Bosnia. The Bush administration has now embraced an idealist foreign policy. The goal is to win the war against Islamic extremism by spreading democracy and liberal institutions not only in the Middle East, but throughout the globe. Washington is looking for reliable allies, whether it is in Asia, Africa, Latin America or the Balkans.
Croatia now has a unique opportunity to emerge as a key strategic partner of the United States. It can become the Israel of southeastern Europe, a pivotal democratic and pro-American ally in an unstable area of the world. Zagreb can act as a bulwark against both Serbian expansionism and resurgent Islam in Bosnia-Hercegovina.
For the first time in centuries, regional geopolitical forces are on the side of Croatia. Serbia remains mired in corruption, economic quagmire and the intractable problem of Kosovo. Macedonia and Albania are internally unstable. Bosnia-Hercegovina remains an ethnic and religious tinderbox. Slovenia and Montenegro are too small to project any meaningful influence in the region. This is why Zagreb’s political elite would be wise to seize the moment while it still exists. Serbia will not be weak forever. The longer Croatia dithers, the more likely and inevitable it is that Western powers will increasingly look to Belgrade in the future for leadership on issues of regional security—just as they did for much of the 20th century.
Ultimately, NATO entry should be the linchpin of Croatia’s geopolitical strategy. A formal military alliance with the West, especially the United States, would not only guarantee Zagreb’s security from any future attacks by its neighbors. It would transform Croatia into a military and strategic partner of America and Europe, enabling the country to serve as the leading force for democracy and stability in the region. Croatia would finally achieve what it has sought since its independence in 1991: to become a full and respected member of the European community of nations.
Hence, this begs the question: with so much at stake for his people and his country, why is Mr. Mesic so determined not to sign Article 98? Such a decision only perpetuates Croatia’s exclusion from NATO.
Perhaps it is because Mr. Mesic is more interested in ingratiating himself with his fellow internationalists in Brussels, Paris, Berlin and The Hague, than in securing Croatia’s long-term national interests. He has repeatedly shown himself to be a dogmatic, anti-American, anti-Croatian leftist, whose foreign policy is irresponsible and short-sighted. In the end, it is Croatia that will continue to pay the price for his intellectual and moral bankruptcy.
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