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Post by Madgolfer on Mar 17, 2011 19:19:55 GMT 1
I wonder if "Croatia" would ever consider employing a professional investment manager?
Its a bit stupid to assume that politicians are the best at the game.
Can you imagine a large international businesses leaving their inward investment strategies down to the tea lady?
In just the past few weeks we have seen reports of Google, Arab sheiks and Donald Trump looking at Croatia, many many more over the past few years have looked and left.
Perhaps its a pride thing?
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Post by crojoe on Mar 17, 2011 19:53:43 GMT 1
I wonder if "Croatia" would ever consider employing a professional investment manager? Its a bit stupid to assume that politicians are the best at the game. Can you imagine a large international businesses leaving their inward investment strategies down to the tea lady? In just the past few weeks we have seen reports of Google, Arab sheiks and Donald Trump looking at Croatia, many many more over the past few years have looked and left. Perhaps its a pride thing? It is a matter of pride, national pride. They don't want to be seen selling out, although they have driven the country close to bankruptcy. But I agree they should hire a firm (international one) to promote the country and offer suggestions. Malaysia did this, hired a group of people to look at procedure and see if they could simplify things and get rid of red tape. Don't know if it worked, but the country is prospering. Montenegro is also opening up its market, claiming it takes only 4 hours to open a company, tax breaks and open door policy towards EU members. Ride a bike to cut costs. www.croatiantimes.com/news/General_News/2011-03-17/17983/_Official_bikes_to_meeting_because_county_too_poor_to_take_care |
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Post by mambo on Mar 17, 2011 21:05:10 GMT 1
@ Crojoe,
With all respect, I don't think it is a matter of national pride. The politicians have no national pride whatsoever, they only care about their own wallets, nothing else.
I think the deeper reason for all the problems is the magic word 'CONTROL'.
Every Croatian lives with 'Control' in the back of their mind. Wherever you come, wherever you go, every single company, every single government institution wants control, want to control everything.
To me it looks like they simply cannot live without controlling every single part of their life and when I look at the government, the police, inspectors etc I can only see total control and punishment for those who don't follow the rules.
The problem with foreign investors is that you have to give them some freedom and that they don't want the government to control their companies. These investors want to run their business according to their own concept, not to what Croatia wants them to do.
As long as Croatia is unwilling to give up total control over every aspect in a company foreign investors will continue to turn away.
But this is the way I see it, others may differ in their opinion.
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Post by Madgolfer on Mar 18, 2011 6:44:43 GMT 1
Control is one point, trust is another. Both sides need to trust each other, Govt and the people. The Govt do not trust the people to pay their taxes and the people do not trust the Govt to handle the money wisely. Catch 22. Unfortunately the Govt here seem to be even less trusting towards large foreign investors, hence the current pattern of investment going elsewhere. Old habits die hard!  |
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Post by crojoe on Mar 18, 2011 6:58:56 GMT 1
I also think certain sectors of the government need to be stripped of their powers, especially inspectors. They should not have the power to just walk in to a store or company and close it down, unless they find a major health issue or danger to customers. Currently they can find one thing wrong (like a tag or description of an item) and close it down for weeks. Taxes need to be collected, but it shouldn't be a case where all fear the tax collectors. A friend of mine a few years back told me a story of how his company books got inspected (he is a craftsman, so did them himself) and it was found he was 1.32 Kuna off, and the lady ranted and raved at him about it (she was 26 years old), then they fined him 5000 Kuna fine, which he then took the case to court and won, but had to pay for his costs.
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Post by siriwan on Mar 18, 2011 8:46:09 GMT 1
I did my own books back in Belgium too, and usually left a small mistake or two (like inverting two digits, etc.) so that any inspector would have been happy to find "something". My mum did that for 30 years. Worked every time. :-))))))))))))))))
If they don't find anything then they get suspicious that it's too "clean"!!!
They definitely need to turn down the inspection process - if a restaurant has food rotting in all corners of the kitchen and the fridge, etc., fine, there's a good reason for immediate closing, but fining 5000 kn for a missing sign in the kitchen??? For an air freshener that needs replacing in the loos??? There should be a warning, then a fine if nothing changes, not a huge fine that is completely disproportionate to the "offense"...
Nothing can be "perfect" but yes, wih the word "control" in every corner of their minds, they can't even remotely consider that idea!
As for investors, "they" might also consider that SME's are a way into the future too. If they keep making it so difficult for everyone (including Croatian investors!) to start the smallest business, a few "big ones" are not going to help much.
Western Europe has 80% of its workforce in SMEs, not in big factories that close down and go settle where it's cheaper...
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Post by gmh on Mar 18, 2011 9:12:05 GMT 1
This from Jutarnji today. (Doesn't appear to be any gurus involved though.)
The government has decided on the establishment of the Croatian Committee for investment, which, as an advisory body, the Governor's Palace once a month to submit reports on the investment climate and to offer measures to encourage investment.
According to Prime Minister Jadranka Kosor, the Committee shall sit with the Government Vice-Gordan Jandrokovic and Domagoj Ivan Milosevic, and ministers Dalić Martin, George Popijač and Branko Bacic. Employers will represent a new CEA chairman John Ergović and general manager Davor Majer, bankers and heads of Zagreb and Commerce Bank of Zagreb, Franjo Lukovic and Bozo Prka. Members of the Committee shall be the President of the Chamber of Commerce Nadan Vidosevic and predjsednik Board HBOR Anton Kovačev.
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Post by Carol on Mar 18, 2011 10:33:13 GMT 1
I think there would need to be some structural change before Croatia became attractive to big investors. What they would need if for their projects to be financially viable:-
1. The corruption would need to either go or at least buy you something (as it does elsewhere)
2. The employment laws would need to change in favour of work getting done. Right now there is a ludicrous situation where the law says one thing and practice is something totally different. However, the end result is that neither the employers nor employees get what they want or need.
3. Something would need to be done with taxes to encourage investors. Ideally a flat rate tax would be introduced and the rest would be scrapped.
4. The court system would need a serious overhaul such that legal action becomes a real threat, and foreigners and Croats can expect justice to be done, irrespective of their wealth or connections.
5. Red tape needs to be cut so that annualised return has some meaning
I believe that this is what a consultant would advise, but I believe both the common people and those in power would have good reason to find the list objectionable. So whilst they argue and riot amongst themselves, investors will continue to set up their operations elsewhere and Croatia is left to fall behind
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Post by mambo on Mar 18, 2011 11:36:01 GMT 1
Carol,
You are absolutely right, but I fear that politicians and government officials are unwilling to make the required changes. It would mean giving up control and would also mean some jobs would cease to exist. Nobody likes to say that they have become redundant, so they will just keep on harassing people as much as possible.
Not a lot of people will want to lose their jobs, so they will probably claim they are doing a very important job.
What surprises me most (and I also asked it once to an inspector) is that these bureaucrats really believe that making others people life impossible is more important than common sense.
The took away the income of a family (closed down their bar) because the Microsoft license (MS DOS) was unreadable on the computer !!!! He closed down their bar and gave a 30,000 Kuna fine.
The week after that a competitor, who had sent the inspector, took over the bar and used that same computer without that license number.............never had problems.
The fact that their salaries are paid from taxes and that taxes are paid by the normal citizens and companies is something many government officials simply don't understand or grasp.
They still have the idea that the normal citizens exist to keep the government working and not that the government exists to help the normal citizens and companies. They still have the concept of 'Us and Them' instead of 'We together'.
I always wondered whether an inspector or local official would be proud when he/she would come home at the end of the day, knowing that they made someones life impossible again.
What goes on in their mind ?
What makes people want to be a part of that system ?
What makes people shut down any sense for reason and understanding ?
What makes people execute the most rediculous rules without questioning a single one of them ?
Do they really hate the other people so much that they can execute these rediculous rules without thinking twice ?
Luckily I am out of that system, but it made me realize how Europe must have felt under the Germans during WW2 and trust me, that has never happened to me in a single country where I have lived.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 18, 2011 12:18:15 GMT 1
Carol, You are absolutely right, but I fear that politicians and government officials are unwilling to make the required changes. It would mean giving up control and would also mean some jobs would cease to exist. Nobody likes to say that they have become redundant, so they will just keep on harassing people as much as possible. Not a lot of people will want to lose their jobs, so they will probably claim they are doing a very important job. What surprises me most (and I also asked it once to an inspector) is that these bureaucrats really believe that making others people life impossible is more important than common sense. The took away the income of a family (closed down their bar) because the Microsoft license (MS DOS) was unreadable on the computer !!!! He closed down their bar and gave a 30,000 Kuna fine. The week after that a competitor, who had sent the inspector, took over the bar and used that same computer without that license number.............never had problems. The fact that their salaries are paid from taxes and that taxes are paid by the normal citizens and companies is something many government officials simply don't understand or grasp. They still have the idea that the normal citizens exist to keep the government working and not that the government exists to help the normal citizens and companies. They still have the concept of 'Us and Them' instead of 'We together'. I always wondered whether an inspector or local official would be proud when he/she would come home at the end of the day, knowing that they made someones life impossible again. What goes on in their mind ? What makes people want to be a part of that system ? What makes people shut down any sense for reason and understanding ? What makes people execute the most rediculous rules without questioning a single one of them ? Do they really hate the other people so much that they can execute these rediculous rules without thinking twice ? Luckily I am out of that system, but it made me realize how Europe must have felt under the Germans during WW2 and trust me, that has never happened to me in a single country where I have lived. DO you think the likes of the European commision in Croatia know about these problems? Do they know the way inspectors behave? Do they know the problems of the small business man? Like this high ranking European dude just visited, and everything and everyone seemed likes smiles all-round, and Kosor said that everything was on track. But such serious problems like inspectors, the corruption, the problems of small business and complications of opening or closing a business seem like major issues. |
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Post by Carol on Mar 18, 2011 12:35:47 GMT 1
i think they do know. Its widely gossiped about Croatia in investment circles, and the evidence is there in the government's own statistics: investors don't go to Croatia. Such things do not happen without a good reason.
In any case, the EU has serious difficulty finding projects for its own pre-accession funds a few years back so if they didn't know before then, then they found out at that time!
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Post by MartinM on Mar 18, 2011 15:59:03 GMT 1
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Post by crojoe on Mar 18, 2011 16:22:11 GMT 1
Wow! There, he said it! By the way, is he British? I wonder if they listened to him? Didn't look like to many people where in the chamber at the time.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 18, 2011 16:29:33 GMT 1
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Post by upthevilla on Mar 18, 2011 19:27:15 GMT 1
Go Roger
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