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Post by Ribaric on May 23, 2012 9:53:48 GMT 1
So Nikolić, a former apparatchik of Šešelj's radical band of murderers and openly Četnik has beaten Tadić to ther president's office. He says "I don't hate Croatia" despite widespread belief that he and his chums murdered many un-armed Croatian civilians as little as 20 years ago.
Without wishing to second guess why the Serbs chose this man, what kind of message does it send to Croatia? I wonder if those who work in EU enlargement are aware of the significance of this result.
Personally, I think Serbia is about to return to stone age politics and it's people, particularly the young and educated, are going to suffer as a result.
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Post by Carol on May 23, 2012 12:49:52 GMT 1
I don't hate Croatia, I do just loathe its people, culture, politics, religion and geography???
I don't know, but I suspect that we will see more of this sort of thing in other countries in the years to come. i.e. extreme politics entering the mainstream and gaining power. We live in difficult times and that's what generally has happened in the past when things have been difficult. (In particular, i am thinking of the extreme right and left wing politics that had such widespread support in Europe during the 30s)
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Post by Ribaric on May 25, 2012 18:48:08 GMT 1
From today's tportal about Vukovar...... "a statement by Serbia's President-Elect, Tomislav Nikolic that the eastern Croatian town was a Serb town and that Croatians had no reason to come back there after they had been expelled from Vukovar during its occupation"
Words fail me. daily.tportal.hr/195967/Croatian-MPs-slam-Nikolic-s-statement.html |
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 2, 2012 18:28:23 GMT 1
Region Suspicious of Serbia’s New Govt
Serbia’s neighbours fear that the new nationalist-led government may threaten the region’s EU future.
Bojana Barlovac, Fatmir Aliu BIRN Belgrade, Pristina
The new Serbian government, which has stirred fears of a return to Nineties-style nationalism, has received a guarded welcome from its neighbours in the region.
On Thursday, Serbia's new President, Tomislav Nikolic, gave the Sots' Ivica Dacic, once the right hand man of Slobodan Milosevic, a mandate to form a government.
The Sots and Progressives, who shared power in the 1990s, when the Progressives’ members were Radicals will be joined in the new government by the United Regions of Serbia.
Ivan Zvonimir Cicak, the President of the Croatian Helsinki Committee has warned that relations between Croatia and Serbia have already started to deteriorate. Croatian President Ivo Josipovic declined to attend Nikolic's inauguration after Nikolic caused controversy by calling the Croatian city of Vukovar ‘a Serbian city’ where displaced Croats should not return.
Cicak pointed out that Josipovic had visited the President of Republika Srpska, Milorad Dodik, even though Dodik had expressed his support for the 1995 bombing of Zagreb in parliament.
However, Cicak has expressed hope that no substantial change on the political level between the two countries will follow because Dacic has already been the number two in the previous government.
"No matter whether he is the first or the second one [in the govt] because it is the same policy, but only now in a different package," Cicak said.
He hinted that the relations between Croatia and Serbia are regulated by Brussels given that both countries are on the path of EU integrations.
However, the fact that Milosevic’s former ally will now head the new Serbian government has caused a great deal of controversy in neighbouring Bosnia and Herzegovina. The daily newspapers have all devoted pages of coverage to the issue, and Bosnia’s biggest newspaper, Dnevni Avaz, has even run with the headline “Is Serbia going back to Milosevic’s era?”
Mostar-based Professor Mile Lasic is troubled by the make-up of the new Serbian government, as he believes that Serbia does not deserve to be led by nationalists 20 years after the war.
"We have every reason to feel sorrow for those who are departing from the political scene," Lasic said.
Kosovo’s President Atifete Jahjaga has called upon Serbia’s new leadership to recognise Kosovo as an independent country. Although Kosovo declared its independence in 2008 for Serbia it still remains its southern province.
“There’s no turning back, we can only move forward by supporting each other on our path to Euro-Atlantic integrations. There are no other alternatives,” President Atifete Jahjaga told reporters on Friday after meeting former Albanian President Bamir Topi.
Topi expressed his hopes that Serbia will continue pursuing the path of the regional Euro-Atlantic integrations and not return to Milosevic era policies.
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Post by Madgolfer on Oct 26, 2012 20:08:57 GMT 1
And now this.....  Serbia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has put out a warning to its citizens who are thinking about travelling to Croatia. The Ministry has even created a black list of Croatian cities that it advises Serbs to avoid, reports Vecernji list. The Croatian cities listed that the Serbian Ministry say might pose a threat to the safety of its citizens are Split, Knin, Zagreb, Osijek, Vukovar, Sisak, Zadar, Sibenik and Dubrovnik. It says that travelling by bus with Serbian licence plates through those cities should be avoided. The Ministry goes on to say that if travel to those places is unavoidable, then cars should only be parked in secure parking lots. Serb citizens should also avoid discussing political issues, especially recent issues, says portal EurActiv.sr.
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Post by lizelle on Oct 27, 2012 21:46:48 GMT 1
And now this..... Serbia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has put out a warning to its citizens who are thinking about travelling to Croatia. The Ministry has even created a black list of Croatian cities that it advises Serbs to avoid, reports Vecernji list. The Croatian cities listed that the Serbian Ministry say might pose a threat to the safety of its citizens are Split, Knin, Zagreb, Osijek, Vukovar, Sisak, Zadar, Sibenik and Dubrovnik. It says that travelling by bus with Serbian licence plates through those cities should be avoided. The Ministry goes on to say that if travel to those places is unavoidable, then cars should only be parked in secure parking lots. Serb citizens should also avoid discussing political issues, especially recent issues, says portal EurActiv.sr. MG, This stuff has been going on here for years, no doubt its on both sides though! My serb friends had to do the "no number plate" trick for their two week holiday on pag in 2006 and now I often see cars without them parked up around Zagreb (especially at night or residential car parks)...I have never seen any serb number plated cars parked in quiet roads or at residential parking areas, even though many live in zagreb! seems more as travel advice to me, but some croats will probably take offence no doubt Its a shame how these nationalistic people keep stirring old emotions and the media machine spreads it far and wide, both sides were as bad as eachother during the war, that goes for war crimes too, all was about greed, Serbs feel hard done by and some will show it...thats just how history works peoples minds |
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Post by gmh on Oct 28, 2012 10:41:30 GMT 1
I think the statement that both sides were as bad as each other during the war is perhaps taking it a little too far. I agree that crimes were committed on both sides, but Serbia did not have Croat soldiers scattered throughout their country blowing up towns and cities.
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Post by quest on Oct 30, 2012 0:02:18 GMT 1
Nobody is going to take offence or care about that at all, most would anyway like the advice to be extended to all of Croatia and for the Serbs to stick to it and avoid crossing the border completely.  |
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Post by lizelle on Oct 30, 2012 10:36:41 GMT 1
I think the statement that both sides were as bad as each other during the war is perhaps taking it a little too far. I agree that crimes were committed on both sides, but Serbia did not have Croat soldiers scattered throughout their country blowing up towns and cities. Hm gmh, One thing I have learnt well since being in this country is avoid discussing the war, because most people will be biased and blindly defend croatia as innocent......the "I agree we were both as bad......but they were worse because of, *bla,bla,bla*" like what you said is an example! NOT an excuse for killing innocents, committing war crimes or leading mothers sons blindly into a war fuelled by greed and lies.....In my opinion Serbian, Croatia and Bosnia did the same things, but just in a different way Something else.....we all know that big companies and governments use a PR to cover any bad news they have, so they end up being hidden or smoothed over.....well maybe you could figure out why America's biggest one was hired to represent the Croatians?......War is full of dirty tricks, that are done mostly by individuals and not only soldiers! But now after the war....what was really achieved apart from a new breed of nationalism! |
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Post by gmh on Oct 30, 2012 11:23:00 GMT 1
Just so you know, I am also a foreigner living in Croatia.
My statement does not lesson any crimes committed by any side during the war.
I'm just saying that Croatia was damaged far more by Serbian bombing and shooting than Serbia was by Croatian bombing and shooting.
I'm pretty sure that is just a plain fact.
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Post by crojoe on Oct 30, 2012 11:45:07 GMT 1
Just so you know, I am also a foreigner living in Croatia. My statement does not lesson any crimes committed by any side during the war. I'm just saying that Croatia was damaged far more by Serbian bombing and shooting than Serbia was by Croatian bombing and shooting. I'm pretty sure that is just a plain fact. All sides are to blame. Problem with war is no body really wins. The only people that come out of it OK are usually those that started it (at least their families seem to benefit big time). The victor always gets to write the history books. But, in all wars it's the people that are used as cannon fodder, the average people, fed to the wolves of war. All to often big business is behind war. From all accounts the Yugoslavia Federation wasn't all bad, but was the war any better? What did it accomplish? Just loads of dead people, not much in the way of benefits. On all accounts Serbia is doing better then Croatia right now economically. Many businesses are setting up shop there while bypassing Croatia. We're all friends again, when only 20 years back we where killing one another. The war also put Croatia into debt so deep that it will take years to start paying back the actual loan (not just the interest). The closest thing to war is football. That is one game that mirrors war well with it's rivalries, hate amongst fans, fights, corruption and more. One is real while the other is a game. Sadly we humans never learn from history and I am sure there is another conflict just waiting to happen soon, another opportunity for certain someones to get rich and plenty of young folks to be used as cannon fodder. My suggestion is if anyone ones to start a war, then all the government officials or persons in power from each side can all be put in an arena and go at it. Last person standing wins for their country. I have a feeling we would see no more war. |
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Post by justapixel on Oct 30, 2012 13:43:37 GMT 1
Of course all sides are to blame, that's how the wars go, but if you are relativizing too much, it's probably not caused by your objectivity or impartiality, but by ignorance and laziness. Wearing rose-colored glasses won't help you comprehend. For each war there's a string of events leading to it, there are motivations and causes. War itself is never the point, except for the chosen few, the profiteers.
There are reasons why Croatia decided to secede, there are reasons why Serbs revolted and there are reasons why a civil war ensued. There are also actions of the parties that can be judged, and I believe that they have already been judged (mostly) fairly.
Anyways, here we are, still recovering, and still a long way from normality. Serbia, for the most part, wasn't physically touched by the wars, but actually it bears even stronger psychological burden of unsatiated nationalism which is dragging its economy and culture down, so I can't agree that it's fairing well economically. Yes, there are green field investments, factories are being opened there (which is still sci.fi. in Croatia), but that's mostly due to their almost three times cheaper cost of labor.
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Post by lizelle on Oct 30, 2012 14:08:54 GMT 1
Just so you know, I am also a foreigner living in Croatia. My statement does not lesson any crimes committed by any side during the war. I'm just saying that Croatia was damaged far more by Serbian bombing and shooting than Serbia was by Croatian bombing and shooting. I'm pretty sure that is just a plain fact. Hey now I understand your point...thats more to do with fighting on Cro. lands, apart from Nato bombing of Belgrade. Had no idea Serbia is Economically better off! would have thought its the other way round, as Serbia had to pay war damage and such |
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Post by crojoe on Oct 30, 2012 16:23:08 GMT 1
Of course all sides are to blame, that's how the wars go, but if you are relativizing too much, it's probably not caused by your objectivity or impartiality, but by ignorance and laziness. Wearing rose-colored glasses won't help you comprehend. For each war there's a string of events leading to it, there are motivations and causes. War itself is never the point, except for the chosen few, the profiteers. There are reasons why Croatia decided to secede, there are reasons why Serbs revolted and there are reasons why a civil war ensued. There are also actions of the parties that can be judged, and I believe that they have already been judged (mostly) fairly. Anyways, here we are, still recovering, and still a long way from normality. Serbia, for the most part, wasn't physically touched by the wars, but actually it bears even stronger psychological burden of unsatiated nationalism which is dragging its economy and culture down, so I can't agree that it's fairing well economically. Yes, there are green field investments, factories are being opened there (which is still sci.fi. in Croatia), but that's mostly due to their almost three times cheaper cost of labor. . Ignorant, lazy and wearing red rose tinted glasses? I guess war is alright to some, justifiable and worth all the dead people? So glad I don't have to offer up my teenage sons life for some stupid politicians ego, corporate greed and nationalistic fervor (especially in a war where the people speak almost the same language, inter-married, where friends, partners and got along pretty well). When I was going around the Croatian refugee camps all those years ago and listening to peoples war stories, you see why this war was based on all the wrong reasons. To make it sound alright they played the nationalistic and religious card perfectly, but really there was so much behind the scenes that amounted to the spoils of war, financial benefiting and huge egos. |
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Post by justapixel on Oct 30, 2012 19:28:41 GMT 1
Ignorant, lazy and wearing red rose tinted glasses? I guess war is alright to some, justifiable and worth all the dead people? Is any war justifiable? Was it justifiable fighting WW2, American or French revolution, are the results of wars ever worth it? Most nations were born in bloody wars, and as the civil wars go, Croatia came to life relatively peacefully, unlike Bosnia.  You don't have to like wars or be a warmonger to understand how and why a war has started. So glad I don't have to offer up my teenage sons life for some stupid politicians ego, corporate greed and nationalistic fervor (especially in a war where the people speak almost the same language, inter-married, where friends, partners and got along pretty well). You really believe Croatians were fighting for some politician or that they were all consumed by nationalist fervor? If you were there at that time, you would have also come to conclusion that life within Milošević controlled Yugoslavia was untenable and that the only option was to leave. Everyone agreed on that point: Slovenes, Croats, left and right wingers, politicians and common folk. Also none of them was really eager to fight, and most people in Croatia and Bosnia didn't really believe that it would ever come to a civil war, that everything could be solved by political actions and public demonstrations. Of course, they were all wrong, as further events have revealed...  When I was going around the Croatian refugee camps all those years ago and listening to peoples war stories, you see why this war was based on all the wrong reasons. To make it sound alright they played the nationalistic and religious card perfectly, but really there was so much behind the scenes that amounted to the spoils of war, financial benefiting and huge egos. That was after. Before the war, it was very different. There was very little nationalistic propaganda and indoctrination and most people were mostly patriotic and mildly nationalistic, only repeated atrocities committed by other side were able to skew common perception to the right and bring nationalistic fervor to the common people. The point is that the war wouldn't have been avoided if there were no nationalism, because even mild patriotism was enough to start the process. Strong nationalism was mostly the result of the war, and was further used to help right wing politicians gain total control of Croatian media, government and economic resources and bring the country to its knees, the results of which we can still feel today. . |
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