Get a Croatian to do it!!!!!!!

[davidzg]

z00ey said:

mambo, even when the price triples for foreigners (as you say it does, i had a foreign registered car and it never ever had a different pricing), it STILL IS CHEAPER than in UK, so STFU

this goes even more for building contractors...

all of you do stuff without proper planning and "troskovnik" (cost estimate, made on a project plan). so, the workers double their price estimating the work to be done and possible problems... it's called putting price "iz rukava" (out of your sleave...

well, either you or the workman will be ripped off by doing this... he's just taking care that it's not him

Zooey I can't believe you think this is a correct attitude, ripping off foreigners because it is cheaper than there home country anyway. That isn't even true, my car service is more expensive in Croatia than in England.

As soon as foreigners live in Croatia full time, they often earn what a Croatian earns, in fact it is harder for them than Croats because we don't speak the language. I would sadden me if in the uk workmen charged immigrants more. Actually I know it wouldn't happen, because the workmen would be in serious trouble with the police for racism.

[davidzg]

charles2 said:

Want to know the secret? Incentivise a recommended Croatian builder to be your project manager. He will do all the negotiating on the contracts. If he organises 5 quotes, go through them minutely (get a translation), get him to explain how numbers are arrived at and then give him 10% of any discounts he achieves in labour and materials. This works - in essence this is how we did our house and aligns your interests with theirs + means contractors don't take liberties as they're dealing with an experienced Croatian builder. If possible, at the initial quote stage, try to ensure that the contractors aren't aware of the ultimate client. Not easy but worth trying. Finally, make sure that your Bill of Quantities from your architect gives an exact specification of materials and finish - makes the quotes easily comparable. Break the whole job down into discrete parts so that different contractors can be hired to do different jobs eg plumbing, electrics, carpentry etc.

I agree that this works, but when it is a smaller job that is not always an option, mambo's car repair etc.

[Madgolfer]

Incentivise a Croat! Thats almost laughable.

We have used four different teams so far, on different parts of our current project and they are all the same. With one notable exception, they turn up roughly on time and finish as and when. You have to watch the standard of workmanship or that just goes to pot, especialy on a Friday afternoon. They drink on site even when you have told them not too. They couldnt give one hoot as to the next project or where their next months work will come from.

Ive tried "targets", forget it. Bonus' payments if its done on time, dont bother. Offers of more work go in one ear and out the other. In short I have found the attitude of the workers here to be poor and the standard of finishing by experienced tradesmen not good enough.

Back to the whip 'em and fist 'em approach then!

[glen]

Madgolfer I know some very good builders in Istria, but its true that you need a good project manager. However I think this is a universal fact the world over. I also think its a universal fact that if contractors think your rich then they will put in a higher quote. Good builders are worth their weight in gold I suppose.

[z00ey]

what i was saying, and none of you had read it, was in the line of Chalres's post:

if building, pay for a project with a cost estimate table, give it to 3-5 contractors to fill the prices, take the best offer and hire a croatian project manager... you'll get your money's worth...

do it any other way, you'll get ripped off like croatians get ripped off when waving thier hands around explainig where they want to put a wall and where the door should be...

i never meant that services done to foreigners should be more expensive (cause it would or wouldn0t be so in their country), i just used poor sarcasm to make my point: both croatians and foreigners get ripped off if they start building with no proper planning... (as i stated, all the time i had a foreign registered car i never had to pay more for services, so it isn't about foreign investor, it's about poor organisation)

ask people from the us embassy if they got ripped off on the new embassy building... they made good plans and most contractors had to pay fees for not finishing stuff on time / with good quality... but the embassy did it as it should've been done

[mambo]

Well, if there is one place where they usually get ripped off it is the US government. Reason ?

They always use the equivalent price at home, i.o.w. if building a wall would cost e.g. 1000 USD in the States then that is what they are willing to pay in any other country.

And I have this information straigt from the source, have also experienced this kind of behavior in Italy, Bosnia, the Caribean, the contractors are really laughing their ass of when the US government is giving away contracts. Then it is party time for them, free money.

[z00ey]

well, i know for a fact that both contractors and planners had to pay back off their fines as they were late in their jobs

you make a tender and a cost estimate, and then you can get different offers... there is no way they were ripped off as the lowest bidder / highest quality won the deal

[Madgolfer]

Regardless of low or high tender prices are, if the starting point for all of them is vastly inflated it makes liitle difference! The basic principle here is, "if they are foreign, charge more."

I found out yesterday that one of the roofing teams (3 guys) have been sitting at home with no work for three weeks now, rather than reduce their (very high) quote and have some work! I rest my case.

[janjohansen]

There seem to be a tendency by some members here to translate their own individual experiences into a universal fact. This of course is complete disregard for other people who have had different experiences. as well as complete disregard for Croatia, its people and the worker who have done excellent jobs here. Though I have had a very good expereinece here in Croatia and one very bad one in UK (see post 4. Nov, this topic and post 19. Oct, topic Dear Mr Westby) I'm fully aware of that in both countries there are good and bad builders and consequently would not show disregard to anyone in neither country. It's just my experiences and nothing more. It's worth remembering that generalization is the foundation racism is built on and blanket statements like: "Incentivice a Croat! Thats almost laugable." is racism. In addition such attitude does nothing to improve the situation for those who have been unfortunate to have bad experiences here, in UK or any other place.
Jan

[mambo]

Of course there are lots of 'good' builders, otherwise all these houses would not still be standing.
And perhaps there are also some people who are charging normal Croatian fees to foreigners, but the majority organises a party as soon as a foreigner walks through the door, because it means extra money.

One mistake most people make is to say: 'ah well, in Britain I would have paid 50 pounds for an hour, here I only pay 30 euro for an hour, so it is cheap'.

It may be cheap, but if the normal fee is 15 euro or 10 euro for an hour is might be cheap, but it is still double the normal price.
It is this practice that should be banned, prices are the same for everyone, not have one price for locals and one price for foreigners.

And the foreigners, especially the Americans, have to learn this principle, because they are the ones who ruin market after market. You may think that paying an American fee is nice for the workers, but you forget that you are ruiining an economy if you do that. Others will also start increasing prices and soon everybody is without a job, because they are too lazy to work for the normal fee again.
It happened in Italy with the Gondola's in Venice, we saw it happening after the introduction of the Euro in Europe where many shops, restaurants, bars etc also had the idea to take advantage of the situation. Many of them are now out of business.

Wherever I am on this planet I always check the normal average wage and that is my reference point, not what I would have to pay at home (wherever that might be). And this is the only way to do business in foreign countries.

[croam]

"There seem to be a tendency by some members here to translate their own individual experiences into a universal fact. This of course is complete disregard for other people who have had different experiences. as well as complete disregard for Croatia, its people and the worker who have done excellent jobs here. "

JANJOHANSON: you hit the nail on the head with that first line.

having a double standard for foreigners seems sleazy to me. Of course from my POV, foreigners are for the most part poor compared to the natives. I would say that the opposite is true for Croatia(generally speaking).

"It's worth remembering that generalization is the foundation racism is built on and blanket statements like: "Incentivice a Croat! Thats almost laugable." is racism. " -- Jan it's OK to be racist if its towards Croatians, get with the program....

It still doesn't make it seem fair but that's capitalism in a nutshell isn't it? Just imagine what a huge shift this is for the natives who had to go from one extreme to the other (communism to capitalism).

Also, if someone moves to a foreign country and buys land without thoroughly investigating then they obviously can afford to pay "foreigner tax" or "dummy tax". Hopefully one day the law system won't allow having different prices for different people. That is price overinflation by individual's trying to squeeze out as much money out of unsuspecting buyers as they can.

[gmh]

I'll repeat that I don't think the higher prices are aimed in particular at foriegners. Builders will try to charge more to anyone that they think has more money than most people. They will do it to a rich croatian just as quickly as they would a foriegner, and they will especialy do it if they can tell that you don't have a clue about the work you need doing. It just so happens that it is an easy and obvious assumption that all foriegners who come to build here are rich. I don't agree with the practise, but charging higher prices to richer people happens everywhere.
I've actually worked on a building site here, and the builders on that job were getting less than 100 euro per day. They were however well fed by the owners also.

[janjohansen]

Hi croam

The natives in your county is the various tribes of red indians. Does your statement still stand?
Jan

[pipastro]

Gav, seeing as you have not done any building work, or paid for it, you should ask around before commenting.

I have a 46m2 flat and a small office of 12m2 underneath. When I came to Croatia I needed to rennovate because my 2 cousins that lived in the flat were more akin to pigs and the flat was turned into a distressed property in 6 years.

I had a budget of eur 20,000 for the infrastructure, excluding the furniture etc.

I spent 3 months going around getting quotes, I had a project plan and I also went to check the material costs etc. I have managed US$ 20 mil so I think I know enough about project management. As I didnt have much local experience I also paid for a civil engineer to come and make the troskovnik (thats an estimate to me and you).

I gave tenders out, and I got numerous responses.

Note: all that I wanted were new windows, breaking 1 wall down, putting a concrete floor down and new electrics and pipes. Added to that plastering the walls and a lick of paint, plus fitting the new tiles etc. Its only a small place - like a studio flat plus bathroom and kitchen.

The cheapest legal estimate I got was eur 18,000 plus building materials!

When you ask them to put it in a contract and go to the notary to make it legal they say they are not interested or that they want 50% more cash, as they will be liable.

Anyways, I went the way most Croatians here go, and found my own workers, asking each to give me a quote.

My little project was to take 2 months, during which I would have to move out and rent.
The project started in Oct 2004 and with the added margin of a month it was supposed to be finished in Dec 2004.

Anyways, on most days the workers came and worked 3 hours if at all. At the end of December 2004 the equivalent of 1 months work was done and it was, according to the agreement, supposed to be finished.

I told the builders that I was going to Hong Kong and I would be back in mid February, so it had to be done by then - remember that is 2.5 months extra - or 150% more time.

So off I go, and on the flight back I stop in London, from Heathrow I call my girlfriend to go and turn the heating on so its warm when I get home. She tells me that the worker had not even been to the flat and nothing was done.

Now the situation is this: I then had nowhere to stay, so on my mobile from London I had to organise everything, hotel, look for a rental apartment etc.

So I call the builder and say I'll be back in the afternoon and to meet me in the flat as I will be going straight there from the airport.

So I fly in and off I go. I am already really pissed off, and the guy keeps me waiting 1 hour before turning up.

SO in he comes, no apology or anything. I start bollocking him and he says he has conditions. Conditions I say? Like HELLO?! He wants the remainding 75% of the money or he wont work.
I tell him that there will be servere consequences if he does not start working straight away, and he says he spent all the cash and his wife is nagging him. (note the cash was just for his work, I paid for the materials directly)

It was only because he was desperate that he went back to work, but I didnt pay anything else. In the end he finished at the end of April, after 7 months. Still he left me with many jobs to do myself, like the grouting, siliconeing the bathroom, cleaning the flat, painting etc.

There is a phrase in Croatian and all the people here know it: "Opra cu stranac" translated " I am going to wash all the money out of the foreigner".

Another of their fav words is "naknadno" it means something like "extra or optional"
When it comes to payment they add a ridiculas sum and say they worked extra and you need to pay their extra bills.

My advice to you all that are doing building, is pay nothing. Buy the materials yourself, so you know whats going where. The builders here substitute material for cheap substandard ones and steal your good stuff. Only when they are done do you pay. Youll find it hard to find a croatian willing to work like that, but its the only way to be safe.

In the end my parquet became unstuck and I have to throw it all away (cost of that is eur 1200), the electricity does not work properly and I had to paint the flat myself. I didnt pay the remaining 75% as punishment, and for the costs that I had to pay (rent, office space, using the mobile instead of the fix line etc etc).

The final cost, just for the infrastructure: eur 37,000 and its still not finished.

[janjohansen]

Hi pipastro

It's a very sad story and I must say that I feel for you especially since I know exactly how it feels. I lost 25.000 pounds in similar circumstances in UK about 15 years ago with no comeback at all, it's heartbreaking. I know it's no comfort to you for me to say that I know about similar and worse experiences than you and I have had in a number of countries where I have lived in the last 35 years, but it's nevertheless true. It's not a phenomenon unique to Croatia. I wish you good luck and happiness in the future and hope you'll enjoy your apartment from now on.
All the best
Jan