Karin Sea

[capio]

mark2 said:

We don't sell houses.....the location does. The Karin Sea.

haha, if a sales man tried that with me, I would laugh all the way to a less cheesy agents office.

I'd probably give him a slap first though, bish bosh.

[mark2]

Mambo,

I am not defending the Karin Sea area for business purposes ( I am the only person I know that reads this forum) , I am defending it against your lies, ignorance and obvious dislike for the region.

With regards to tourism, the area welcomes thousands of tourists each season, www.karin.hr they come for the nature and peace, using the Karin Sea as an ideal base due to it’s proximity to 4 National Parks - Krka waterfalls, Plitvice Lakes, Paklenica and the Kornati Islands, not to mention Zadar and an hour from Trogir / Split.

Your imagined building-frenzy does not exist, yes countless houses are being refurbished and finished off to high standards and, yes, there are still derelict and war damaged houses, but you cannot (as you suggest) just demolish someone’s private property.

I am the first to admit and even point out faults within some of the towns on the Karin Sea, the need for all of the roads to be tarmacced instead of gravel, the need for more restaurants (currently only 4 operating) and the aforementioned houses to be restored, besides this your estimate of ten years before improvement is farcical. The town of Karin aside, there are a further 7 villages/towns on the Karin Sea, each have there own Udruga, our village alone has 330,000 Kuna (from 100 houses) ready for investment in one village alone.

I realise, as you say, that this is only your opinion, but a person “passing through” has not witnessed the real advances and improvements that have been made in the last 2 years alone. The Karin Sea is still the underdog of the coast as you yourself said “It could be one of the most beautiful spots in Croatia, everything (nature wise) is in place to make something of it…” and "If I would want to buy a house I think I would go for a place relatively close to the beach, within 15 minutes from the airport of Zadar"

[mambo]

First of all Mark,

An opinion can never be a lie, it is as simple as that.

Like you form an opinion about a house, a football game etc I form an opinion about an area. It only becomes a lie when you would say that the house is completely finished when they just started building or when the other team all of a sudden won the game, if in fact they lost. Then you can call it a lie.

Ignorance is also a strong word to use.

Do you require tourists to be fully up to date with all the ins and outs of a village ? If they don't know that they become ignorant ?
I can inform you that 99 % of all tourists are fully ignorant of the places they visit and rightfully so. There is no law that says you can only go on holiday if you know an X amount about a certain place. Would become quite ridiculous if we would start doing that.

Indeed the Karin Sea is pretty close to the airport, about half an hour drive is reasonable. That is the good part about it.
On the other hand...........it is half an hour in the wrong direction. Zadar is then about an hour drive, just like the whole coast line, so in fact you are still miles away from civilization.
Since most tourists want to go out at night they will have to go for long nice drives to get somewhere. Not a lot of people really like doing that.

The bad part about the Karin Sea is the lack of vision and lack of planning, lack of long term ideas of where to go with the area.
In the Karin Sea a hell of a lot of money can be made at this time, because houses which were completely worthless (deserted villages) all of a sudden have a value of 100,000 euro and more. Nice if you were able to lay your hands on 10 ruins or 10,000 m2 in the past. Just market it as a perfect place and soon you will be swimming in money.

That is from the investors point of view, but that view absolutely does not have to be the same as the point of view of the tourists.

Why would a tourist care whether the ruin is now worth 100,000 euro ? There is still nothing to do and there are still lots of ruins around.

Does a tourist care whether last year 200 meters of asphalt was put on the street ? A tourist only cares about the roads that don't have asphalt, for them it is normal that all roads are perfect, so if they are not they will complain.

Does a tourist care whether you had to work your ass of to plant a few trees ? Of course not, trees simply belong there and should be there, he does not care what you had to do to bring them there.

Does a tourist care whether in 2 or 3 or 4 years time perhaps a restaurant will open up or perhaps a supermarket will open up ?
Of course not, they should be there right now, because he is also there at this time and this is the time he needs it.

Does a tourist care whether people are refurbishing their houses ? Why should he care ? If I rent an apartment I expect the apartment and the area around there to be perfect, that is what I pay good money for, so I simply demand it.

Mark,

Many people in this country think that tourists have a duty to spend their holiday in a certain area and that tourists should not complain about minor deviances (a house that is not finished, no landscaping, no restaurants, no roads etc).
Fact is that tourists have no duty whatsoever. Tourism is not a god given right, you have to work for it. A tourist can be in Croatia this year, but in Spain next year. So if you want to keep them coming back you have to give them good value for money and an experience they will never forget.

If you (or the Croatian goverment) want tourists to come to the Karin Sea then that sea has to be completely finished and not in 5 or 10 years time. If you want to see what it should look like I can only point you to Austria, Italy etc, where everything is in place. It is now however so busy there that they have traffic jams continuously, but the whole infrastructure is in place. That is the way it should be and if you are honest you will agree with me that the Karin Sea is not a year, but light years away from that level.
And that level is what is also required if you want to charge tourists 100,000 euro or more for some collection of stones with a intrinsic value of just 30,000 euro.

So, clean up the mess, develop the area, do some landscaping (not just bare rock where those two new building pits are), bring in the operators (restaurants, shops, supermarkets), tear down the old ruins or tell people to restore them (if not finished in 2 or 3 years simply take them down).
And knowing how things in Croatia work I have a hard time believing it will ever happen.

[mark2]

Yet more lies........

"Indeed the Karin Sea is pretty close to the airport, about half an hour drive is reasonable. That is the good part about it.
On the other hand...........it is half an hour in the wrong direction. Zadar is then about an hour drive, just like the whole coast line, so in fact you are still miles away from civilization."

The Karin Sea is a 15-20 minute drive to Zadar airport (En route to Zadar) which is another 10 minutes. Therefore Zadar is 25-30 minutes from the Karin Sea. Not one and a half hours as you claim. The building of the new dual carriageway, which is nearing completion, will shorten this journey. Or did you miss this massive project as you were "passing by"

"Does a tourist care whether in 2 or 3 or 4 years time perhaps a restaurant will open up or perhaps a supermarket will open up ?
Of course not, they should be there right now, because he is also there at this time and this is the time he needs it."

More false information, as I have already stated but you choose to ignore, there are 4 restaurants on the Karin Sea with another 4 yet to open, Karin town has 5 good sized mini markets (or did you also miss them as you passed through) The area does not need supermarkets, as Zadar and Benkovac are so close.

I do not know whether your grudge against this area is ethnically, politically or enviously motivated. You weren't the Dutch gentleman searching for a cheap house a couple of weeks ago, were you?


"If you want to see what it should look like I can only point you to Austria, Italy etc, where everything is in place.".....and how many years ago did these countries feel the full brunt of war?


"And that level is what is also required if you want to charge tourists 100,000 euro or more for some collection of stones with a intrinsic value of just 30,000 euro."

For a little over 100,000 Euros investors in the Karin Sea area can buy a totally refurbished 2-apartment house.

Time and time again you contradict yourself, you start a thread claiming the new housing estate is an illegal building frenzy, when I explain it is a government scheme, you say you don't care. You claim real estate agents should be responsible for town pland which were drawn up 30 or 40 years ago. I have answered all of your unfounded lies and now you have turned the subject around to tourism, trying to put people off coming here on holiday. Well with a regular 8,000 visitors each summer and many returning year after year, I think your argument is faltering a little.

By the way, you never mentioned why you were "passing through" this wonderful area! It was you wasn't it? what's wrong? Didn't have enough money to buy in?

[mambo]

Mark,

I passed by on the way back from the fair in Split. The highway was closed due to the Bora and that's how we ended up on the Karin Sea.
Since I was curious to the changes we decided to take a small detour and drive through several of the villages.

And no I was not the Dutch person looking for a house in that area. Like I said it is perhaps nice if you have an extremely long term view, but it is not an area where I would want to be. If I would have to look for something I would plan 10 - 15 min from the airport..........but on or near the coast (Sukosan or entry of Zadar). Better however is 15 minutes from the airport in Split, more flights, all year long, much better investment.

We saw the Karin Sea dooming in the distance and the first thing you will notice are these building pits. Since they are carved out from the hills they are beautiful red in an otherwise colorless area.

What I read through the lines in your post are excuses why we should not expect too much from this area at this moment. There was a war, all that stuff is not necessary, it is fine like it is.

Like I said before, it is fine from the point of view of a real estate agent (you would be nuts to claim it is not fine) and perhaps from the point of view of someone who wants to buy a house with the idea that perhaps in 20 years time the area may become something.

I am looking at the area from a different point of view, that of the tourist arriving in that area.

If you want to tell me that the view of arriving at the Karin Sea is almost identical to the view of arriving in Trogir, Primosten, Korcula, even Porec (a city which I don't like at all) then you are overdoing it.

Why am I so 'upset' of the Karin Sea ?

If you would have read my other post you would have already known it. I am against destroying a coast line with the sole purpose of making a quick buck.
I have no problem with developing an area, but it has to be long term development, not short term. It would be nice if also the local people and the local economy would benefit from this building frenzy. And with benefit I don't mean making a quick profit on some cheap apartment.
If the area would be developed properly it could create jobs and income all year long, they could even build resorts or apartment complexes, as long as it is done properly, not like this.

I also understand that you don't get the part when I say that a tourist does not care who is responsible for the mess. The only thing the tourist will see is a mess and he really is not interested in hearing who is responsible for it.

Compare it to getting poor quality food in restaurant.
Do you care whether the cook just got divorced or that the waiter did not sleep the night before ?
Of course not, you simply want good quality food and if it is not you are going to say something about it (at least I will, perhaps you don't). Most of all..........I will not go back to that restaurant.

And when you claim that the full 8000 tourists go there I really had to smile. Over a 90 day period it means 30 families (of an average of 3 persons) on average per day...............sounds like a real good base for an investment.
Now I also understand why there are only 4 restaurants.........there are simply not enough people to warrant additional restaurants.

So my estimate of at least another 10 years before the area can become something is not so far off.

[mark2]

I apologise about the low tourist figures, that was supposed to read 8000 daily. Quote the Official Udruga figures "Na našem podruèju nalazi se plaža duljine nekoliko kilometara na kojoj ljeti boravi preko 8000 gostiju dnevno"

You still make little sense to me, you bang on about a "building pit" which is set above the main road and out of view unless you are "passing by" an estate which is currently being completed and landscaped. This is your ONLY argument regarding destruction of a coastline.

To those readers of this forum that actually believe the picture which Mambo is attempting to paint of the Karin Sea, I invite you to contact me at [e-mail] and come to see for yourself. OK we have no huge tourist apartments, no night clubs, no huge shopping centres, on the other hand we don't want them.

[mambo]

Let's do it differently.

Let's all go to the Karin Sea (like I said I will be there around 12 April again) and let's take a good look.
I will be very curious to the remarks of other people.

I wish I took those pictures last Sunday, perhaps you would have understood what I mean.

But don't get me wrong, I am not trying to destroy your business, I am just not happy with the typical Croatian way the development is handled, which is basically 'let's find an area, build like crazy, make s loads of money and leave !

Remember the advertisement on CNBC ?

Croatia..........the Mediterranean as it once was.

They should simply add 'but hurry up, because we will do our utmost to make sure it is gone in 10 years'.

[rijekafan]

I am really enjoying this exchange. My problem with the area is the extreme nationalism of many of the people but that is understandable in view of the terrible recent history of the area. After all the English often display Germanophobia more than 60 years after the war. If you want to complain about the lack of trees blame the Romans and Venetians. They stripped the coast of trees and enpoverished the locals. The area still has not recovered from their second rate colonial enterprises. The Austrians did bugger all for the place and the Serbs milked Dalmatia like a cow. In recent times Zagreb has replaced Belgrade as the imperial milking shed. The locals really have been up against it for more than 2000 years.

[mark2]

Rijekafan, when you mention lack of trees you are obviously referring to the Island of Pag, the Karin Sea is surrounded by dense pine forests. One of the reasons I prefer this area to Rijeka is that there is no industry whatsoever, unlike your shipyards and oil refinery. As for nationalism here, I can not comment, I am a foreigner in a foreign land, but if people are proud of their country or area, that is their affair.

[darcy]

mark2 said:

As for nationalism here, I can not comment, I am a foreigner in a foreign land, but if people are proud of their country or area, that is their affair.

Thanks, I still prefer peaceful, polite and quiet people.

[rijekafan]

[

blockquote]

mark2 said:

Rijekafan, when you mention lack of trees you are obviously referring to the Island of Pag, the Karin Sea is surrounded by dense pine forests. One of the reasons I prefer this area to Rijeka is that there is no industry whatsoever, unlike your shipyards and oil refinery. As for nationalism here, I can not comment, I am a foreigner in a foreign land, but if people are proud of their country or area, that is their affair.

[/blockquote]
One cant really compare a major city like Rijeka with a rural area like the Karin Sea. Of course there will be industrial blights in a city. I will not defend the refineries or those hateful high rise places for a second. There are far more beautiful cities than Rijeka. Other than an amazing setting, Rijeka's main asset is its people who tend to be pluralistic and friendly. As for nationalism, its normal to love ones country but in the Zadar area nationalism often tends towards Serb, Jew and homo hating.

[irac]

Would it not be better just to close this thread? It's not exactly balanced debate with one pointing out what he saw and the other telling him he's a liar and ending with a sales pitch. I gave up on any discussion of the region after being told I and didn't see what we saw, but hey, caveat empor.

I agree with Rijeka fan that the area is a little on the rough (mentality) side, hence a lot of Slovenians have sold up, but they know an eye for a bargain and ended up buying further south or north along the coast. Zadar area is notorious for it's double edged stupidity in terms of nationalism (there are some idiotic Croat and Serb haters), it stretches down past Pakostane and into Skradin, but I don't believe it's indicative of all folks there.

[capio]

Mark do you look like Arthur Daley?

[ludilousa]

i dunno if they just shut up around me, but i visited croatia for over a month in 2003, 2004, and 2005, and never heard one bad thing said against serbs or jews. i was with friends half the time and as a "tourist" the other time.

in my experience, the "biggest" nationalists are in the diaspora in the US, and alot of those are just below 30 "kids" who parrot their grandparents aged views.

i'm not denying anyone's experience on here, i'm just saying...

rijekafan said:

[

blockquote]

mark2 said:

Rijekafan, when you mention lack of trees you are obviously referring to the Island of Pag, the Karin Sea is surrounded by dense pine forests. One of the reasons I prefer this area to Rijeka is that there is no industry whatsoever, unlike your shipyards and oil refinery. As for nationalism here, I can not comment, I am a foreigner in a foreign land, but if people are proud of their country or area, that is their affair.

[/blockquote]
One cant really compare a major city like Rijeka with a rural area like the Karin Sea. Of course there will be industrial blights in a city. I will not defend the refineries or those hateful high rise places for a second. There are far more beautiful cities than Rijeka. Other than an amazing setting, Rijeka's main asset is its people who tend to be pluralistic and friendly. As for nationalism, its normal to love ones country but in the Zadar area nationalism often tends towards Serb, Jew and homo hating.
[/quote]

[mark2]

I agree and disagree with Irac's last post. The thread should be closed as it has gone way off topic. The attitudes of people in Northern Dalmatia should not be discussed under the heading "Karin Sea" and should probably not be discussed in the property section. As for the "It's not exactly balanced debate with one pointing out what he saw and the other telling him he's a liar and ending with a sales pitch" Mambo began this debate with allegations of mass illegal building. I have given truthful answers to each of his incorrect statements, distance from Zadar etc etc. I have put across my knowledge of the area and current progress, I openly admit and it is plain to see that the area has a way to go. Let that be an end to it. After all with the current massive private investment in the area, who is correct? a man passing by one day, a man who lives here? or the masses of buyers who have bought on the Karin Sea.... including overseas investment companies?