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Post by krkisland on Aug 7, 2007 0:37:50 GMT 1
Im thinking of sending a fax and letter along the lines of:
Following notification that you have decided not to proceed with the sale of property XXXX I am writing to you to request immediate payment of my deposit XXX and additional 10% payment as per the pre-contract clause XX .
If I do not receive the funds within 7 days I will be passing the matter to my lawyer. Please transfer to bank account - <name> - <account number> immediately.
Regards AAA
If anyone can translate to croatian be much appreciated.
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Post by darcy on Aug 7, 2007 12:43:52 GMT 1
Hmmm ... So, do you have any settlement date? That can be your action point. Do you have anything from your agent? That is again an action point; word from agent for me is like word from the vendor. Letter from the agent is same like the letter from the vendor. In any case I would put the rumour in writing (vendor not willing to proceed) and ask for the answer in 7 days - exactly what you did.
I would always rather go for the UK contract options (buyer pays a deposit to an independent party) then taking this risky Croatian option. Now money is not with any independent party, but you need to pull a tooth (or two) out of their mouth. Good luck, mate.
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Post by Carol on Aug 7, 2007 17:10:00 GMT 1
if you write that you have left it open for them to argue that you are withdrawing from the sale.
You need to stop discussing it on the telephone and tell them to put anything they have to say in writing to you. Say you will not read the letter or consider it fron the company unless a director signs it and the company stamp is attched. Make sure your estate agent isn't muddying the waters either. Always think, "if this gets to court I want every piece of correspondence to be clear who is making what decisions and as much as possible fo that to be backed up in writing". Right now they could say you phoned them saying you wish to withdraw. If you do speak on the phone, get the full name of the person to whom you are speaking and note the time and date, then fax them a letter confirming who said what in the conversation afterwards. Basically think like you are preparing for a court case and therefore you need proof rather than just one persons word against another.
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Post by krkisland on Aug 7, 2007 20:45:02 GMT 1
I was thinking along the lines of this as a fax ( if its a fax surely its not a legal document).
Dear Sir,
following the phone conversation on 07.08.07 between (father in law's name) and Mr xxxx (company director), and the (company name) attempt to resolve the sale of apartment xxxx in alternate way, I state in writing that my position is following:
1) I refuse your offer of the replacement apartment in one of other four blocks.
2) I am giving you 7 (seven) days starting from 07.08.07 for the following:
a) The company aaaaa must complete the sale and sign the final contract on or before 14th of August 2007; OR b) The company must refund double the deposit of xxxx, which is in total yyyy as per pre-contract clause 7, in which case the double deposit amount of yyyy must be transferred to bank account - <name> - <account number> on or before 14th of August 2007.
I would appreciate if you would let me know your decision in writing at your earliest convenience.
I will be passing the matter to my lawyer if I do not have this matter resolved by 14th of August.
Kind Regards....
As the fax isnt a legal document and ive clearly stated that they do not wish to proceed with the sale will this not be another point of attack?
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Post by californiacro on Aug 7, 2007 21:42:03 GMT 1
In the USA. A fax can be a legal and binding contract if signed. In property sales everything is faxed back and forth and it is just as binding as the original copy.
In Croatia, I don't know why it would not be the same if it is faxed back with signatures.
Some of the things that Carol is saying in the above post... I was going to say but she got to it first. I would make them put everything in writing now.... no more phone conversations and phone conversations should be documented... time, person and what was talked about.
As was stated in the above post.... prepare this as a document you will be using as evidence in court.
I would also send a copy of the orginal contract and highlight the part where the seller has to pay double the deposit back.
If you just want to get out of this as cleanly, quickly as possible... you might even want to suggest if they get the money back to you within a certain date say 3 days... that you would take a bit less....
Just a suggestion. Sometimes greedy people will pay up faster if they know they don't have to pay the full amount of the penalty for the deposit. GoodLuck
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Post by krkisland on Aug 7, 2007 22:10:57 GMT 1
Thanks californiacro.. Just curious..
What happens if the developer never sends me a letter "despite my several requests and letters to them"?
Do you think a letter from the agent sent to me with his company stamp stating that the vendor wont sell the property will hold up in court?
Rgds C
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Post by darcy on Aug 7, 2007 22:33:42 GMT 1
If I am your developer, I will ignore your letter, and that is likely game they will play. At some point they will start with driving you around and making stupid excuses, but the end game is "catch me if you can".
If the agent is acting on a behalf of the vendor and you get something from the agent, sure, you will send to the developer "show-case letter".
Just keep in mind - (Carol is 101% right) - in every letter you need to say you want to proceed as agreed, but you require from the developers to clarify their position.
When is your selletelemt?
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Post by darcy on Aug 7, 2007 22:49:23 GMT 1
... and just to clarify - any communication is a "legal" communications. Verbal, fax, sealed or stamped. Of course, verbal communication is more open for the dispute. In particular, Croatians in their business communication very often say something they cannot deliver or they are exaggerating facts, sometimes intentionally, sometimes to "deliver a message and make a point". You have to be aware of that. What is why they will argue on count against verbal communication or ignore it took place.
You obviously did not work with Croatian businessman before, but be taught, be straight and do not talk too much about business (go and drink with them, they like it, but do not talk business). Ask for stamped paper and never, never put any money in their hands before securing yourself.
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Post by californiacro on Aug 8, 2007 2:44:33 GMT 1
... and just to clarify - any communication is a "legal" communications. Verbal, fax, sealed or stamped. Of course, verbal communication is more open for the dispute. In particular, Croatians in their business communication very often say something they cannot deliver or they are exaggerating facts, sometimes intentionally, sometimes to "deliver a message and make a point". You have to be aware of that. What is why they will argue on count against verbal communication or ignore it took place. You obviously did not work with Croatian businessman before, but be taught, be straight and do not talk too much about business (go and drink with them, they like it, but do not talk business). Ask for stamped paper and never, never put any money in their hands before securing yourself. True Pretty much all business is like this. When I use to be in real estate business. I kept meticulous notes and I would get everything in writing..... I made a few mistakes when I was younger trusting what someone told me or promised me verbally only to be scr#wed. Having clients pissed off and possibly suing me because a deal went bad...... Now I am older and wiser. I always get it in writing...no matter how small the matter. Even for property deals concerning myself I still get everything in writing no matter how small the detail..... down to the windows being clean on day of move in. In this day and age of business.... no one is to be trusted... no matter how nice they are.... because when things go bad... people turn on you like a tiger. Anyway you probably know all this.....
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Post by californiacro on Aug 8, 2007 2:56:57 GMT 1
Thanks californiacro.. Just curious.. What happens if the developer never sends me a letter "despite my several requests and letters to them"? Do you think a letter from the agent sent to me with his company stamp stating that the vendor wont sell the property will hold up in court? Rgds C A letter from his agent? Yes, because his agent represents him. Your agent, No. Your agent can't express the seller thoughts/actions. In your contracts there are probably times(dates) that the contract has to be executed by.... times that the contracts expire or need to be finished by.... that should be good enough to show that the other party(seller) did not fulfill the obligation of the contract. Also your letters requesting to continue with the original contract and that if the seller will not execute the original contract, that he needs to pay you back.... will be shown as evidence that the seller did not act upon your requests.... as long as you have proof that they were given to the seller. Proof of mail/document service. That way the seller can't say that he never got the documents. Good luck!!!
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Post by Carol on Aug 8, 2007 10:09:13 GMT 1
I realise you have probably very little intention of going to court but that's not the point. The point is that if the seller believes you have a case that you will take to court and will win, then he'll probably back down. If he does not believe that you can and will go all the way to win a court case, then you have lost before you started.
Californiacro is giving good advice above. Just one caveat though, you need to be able to provide proof that the agent has authority to write on behalf of the seller. Otherwise its just some other person unconnected with the case sticking their oar in as far as the court will be concerned. Suggest he drafts a letter giving him authority to act on the sellers behalf in this case with you. Then forward you a copy of it for your records. Just in case you don't know, letters are not legally valid in croatia unless some sort of stamp is attached and the letter is signed by an authorised person. In this case i imagine it will be a director of the seller's company who would sign it. If you were buying as a private individual then we are in a grey area. Really to be sure they will be accepted by the court in Croatia if your letters are in the form of a notification you should have your signature notarised. If you are in the uk whose notarys are not recognised by Croatia, then you should have the letters apostiled. However obtaining apostiles is a major hassle and expensive (£27 a time). If I were you, I would insist that the seller's letters are signed and stamped but not do the same for your own letters at the moment. In fact if I were you, i would appoint a representative (i.e. lawyer) in Croatia now to act for you in this matter as its becoming clear that you will only get the double deposit if you fight for it.
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Post by krkisland on Aug 8, 2007 15:08:45 GMT 1
A quick update:
After my wife sending a fax to the seller (company directors) yesterday
Today my wife has received a reply via email from the company. Basically they have stated that they are very sorry but they have made a mistake selling this apartment. Because of this they are urging me to consider purchase of another (completely different apartment) in the block next door with a 5 percent discount. No mention of a return of funds and urging for my wifes mobile number to discuss with her direct. We have not provided them with the number.
The response from my wife to the company was.
Please can you send this letter to our fax machine with company stamp attached.
I now have a copy of this letter from the company via fax with the company's stamp.
I will now leave them to stew for one day before responding.
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Post by californiacro on Aug 10, 2007 2:55:14 GMT 1
A quick update: After my wife sending a fax to the seller (company directors) yesterday Today my wife has received a reply via email from the company. Basically they have stated that they are very sorry but they have made a mistake selling this apartment. Because of this they are urging me to consider purchase of another (completely different apartment) in the block next door with a 5 percent discount. No mention of a return of funds and urging for my wifes mobile number to discuss with her direct. We have not provided them with the number. The response from my wife to the company was. Please can you send this letter to our fax machine with company stamp attached. I now have a copy of this letter from the company via fax with the company's stamp. I will now leave them to stew for one day before responding. Have you found out anything yet? I was telling my husband about you..... he just threw his hands in the air and said hope it does not go to court because maybe his grandchildren might see the money.... I agree... the court system is to slow. They really need to revamp the court system.
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Post by krkisland on Aug 10, 2007 19:59:40 GMT 1
Hi all - well the current state of play is as follows:
Fax was sent to senior manager and manager of the sub-company involved. The company apologised via email and also by fax. They were also frantically trying to get hold of my wife (daily) to resolve the issue by offering another apartment (significantly smaller) at a small discount.
They sent this offer via email and have also sent a fax with company stamp offering the same and apologising for a mistake by a lady in the company.
The response from us via FAX today was that as per the previous fax
We are sorry that you made a mistake but - There are two options 1) Complete the original sale or 2) Company to refund deposit x 2
It also stated that its pointless to continue telephone conversations from now on. They have been given a deadline to choose option 1 or 2. This has been backed up by a phone call. The last phone call from us.
If the deadline we provided is passed without any actions by the seller then the lawyer will take over. Apparently they dont want to take it further with courts and have mentioned they will refund money verbally (although no mention of double).
Now its a waiting game until the deadline..
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Post by Carol on Aug 11, 2007 9:22:05 GMT 1
Quick prediction: they won't give you the double deposit without a huge fight. They might say they will and give various deadlines which they will miss, but once you've got the original deposit back, I bet you'll suddenly find that they are unreachable by phone. When you put it to the court they'll pay someone to move the case to the side for a while and then after two years it will be out of time and be dropped. This is why you need a local lawyer with connections.
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