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Post by justapixel on Sept 3, 2007 23:51:30 GMT 1
Justapixel. Raising prices with inflation is OK, but 600 % in 7 years and not do any maintenance ? From what you said (25-30 to 80), it was 200%, not 600%, which is a lot but acceptable when compensated for inflation and market saturation. But yeah, only for lack of maintenance, they deserve to go bust. I have my doubts about that. There used to be much more 'illegal' tourists and they are now turning 'legal' due to all the goverment regulations. That can result in an increase. That depends on region. Overpriced regions like Hvar, Dubrovnik and Istria took a hit, while other regions had increase in numbers. This summer in Zadar there were definitely much more tourists than in previous years. But if I compare it to other countries I cannot help but conclude that tourism is not growing that fast anymore, a few percent per year, that is it. If you look at Turkye you are looking at astounding figures. From almost nothing to 18 million last year and almost all of them come by plane ! Where does that leave Croatia (reachable by car) with its 9,5 million ? Turkey is successful because it's dirt cheap compared to other Mediteranean countries. They can afford it because their GDP and salaries are lower. They also probably have longer tourist season cause they are further south. They manage to use well what they have, but so does Croatia. Growth of tourism in last 6-7 years has been similar both in Croatia and Turkey. You really think it would be reasonable to bring 18 million tourists to Croatian coast? I think it would be a disaster. And for the high season ? It is an imaginary season, created by a bunch of fools who cannot understand that it is the tourist who decides when it is high season. When you have your holiday that is your high season. A tourist would not care less if they call it low, mid or high season. His boss tells him he can have a holiday and so for him it is high season. They are probably deciding the high season on inertia and tradition, but they still manage to have full capacities with higher prices. Economically that would mean they've successfully profiled the market (although I doubt they'd understand me if I told them that ). Only when the tourists stop coming and the locals start biatching about that, then I'll dare tell them they are overpriced and deserve what they got. Actually, that did happen on Hvar. And to think that demand is higher in August than in e.g. July is fooling yourself. Looking at this season I think that July was more busy than August. The period between 15 July and 5 August was the busiest time of this year, for business and for tourists. I can't tell because I don't know the exact numbers, and don't know what tourist capacities and where were underused in August.. At my work, more people had their vacations in August than in July. Also you must take into account that all Italians concentrate in August and that's a huge number. As long as the visitors are coming, locals have the right to choose any price they want. But so do the tourists, and when the tourists stop coming then we can say the overpriced fools had it coming. Like in Hvar. .
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Post by rijekafan on Sept 4, 2007 9:37:34 GMT 1
From what I know Italians have some of the highest average wages in Europe. Plus alot of them get black money. Waiters get paid sranje everywhere except maybe Germand and Switzerland. I own a half share in a boat and 140kn for a day trip including lunch is incredibly cheap and leaves not a great deal of profit. This is not Bangladesh and it is not Turkey. 25 Euros for 2 people in a coastal holiday centre is great value. A dorm bed cost that much in Italy. If you want much cheaper prices you can go to the black sea and deal with all the pollution and crime. I agree that American tourists are often loud and vile. The thing is service standards are superb in the US and they expect the same when they travel
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Post by rijekafan on Sept 4, 2007 9:39:12 GMT 1
I would hate to be an American, I feel sorry for them
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Post by pocketvenus on Sept 4, 2007 10:54:26 GMT 1
Whenever I see Americans I am SO happy and proud to be European!! ;D
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Post by Slatkica on Sept 4, 2007 11:10:32 GMT 1
Wherever in Europe I am I can't bear American tourists, as they are so loud, obnoxious, ignorant and take up all the face! So true.... so lucky you don't have to live with them... it is horrible....... I don't know how I manage d**n Yankee's So I'm guessing you weren't born in America?! ;D
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Post by mambo on Sept 4, 2007 11:55:16 GMT 1
Rijekafan,
I am sorry to say, but you have it wrong. The salaries in Italy are amongst the lowest in Europe. The difference between the workers and the bosses is immense.
A very common practice in Italy is to hire personnel, let them work for 6 months (which is the max allowable test period), then fire them and next day rehire them for another 6 months. This way they can draw no rights from their jobs.
Trust me, I lived there, I know what Italy is all about and it is not about high wages.
And black money ? Of course there is a hell of a lot of black money, but the reason is because the tax laws are killing of any normal human being. So you will also see that almost every second person (by way of saying) has his own company. This way they can generate some extra income.
You may believe it or not, but the average net income for an Italian lies around 800 - 1000 euro, while in the Netherlands and Germany it is 1200 to 1400 euro.
And 140 Kuna for a day trip may sound cheap, perhaps also is, I cannot judge about that. I have no idea what is included and excluded in the lunch. I know boats that will serve lunch, but not the drinks, while at the same time prohibiting the tourists from bringing their own booze. Then comes the best trick, they sell the booze themselves, but at double the rate of a normal restaurant.
Sometimes lunch is also nothing special, some Sardines on the grill, some bread and that is it.
I spoke with one of the 'hustlers' in Murter who has to draw tourists on the boat of his boss. The trip costs 150 Kuna per person, they can handle 60 persons on the boat and the boss pays him 60 Kuna per person he delivers. That leaves 90 Kuna per person for the boss. The fuel costs next to nothing and the food perhaps 5 Kuna per person (fish, bread, some home grown vegetables). They are having a nice business !
By all means, if they can fill the boat like that it is fine with me, but it doesn't mean that the price is then automatically cheap.
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Post by pocketvenus on Sept 4, 2007 12:06:59 GMT 1
So true.... so lucky you don't have to live with them... it is horrible....... I don't know how I manage d**n Yankee's So I'm guessing you weren't born in America?! ;D I certainly was not, and wouldn't set foot there if you paid me!
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Post by mambo on Sept 4, 2007 12:11:31 GMT 1
And forgot to mention.
Why do you say 'this is not Bangladesh or Turkye ?'
Did you forget the history of this country ? Did you forget what tourists Yugoslavia used to cater to and with great success ?
This country has always been the country of low cost holidays. The campgrounds were identical to now, the apartments/rooms at the houses of the locals were identical and the prices were good. This enabled the enormous group of tourists with low income to have a normal holiday and still that group is much larger than the group of the middle income, let alone the higher income.
Croatia now has decided it wants to get more money from the tourists so it raised the prices, but it simply forgets that if you raise prices you also have to raise standards and that is not just building a new toilet or swimming pool on a campground or installing an air conditioning in an apartment.
If you want to be amongst the most expensive countries in Europe (and Croatia is on the number three spot at this moment) you will have to make sure your roads are in good condition. What we have now does not even deserve the name road, a dirt path is often in better condition than the roads e.g. in Istria. The new road on Losinj is something we can only dream about in Istria !
But not only the roads need to be done. YOu will need to provide other services, landscaping, activities etc and all of these don't exist in Croatia. When I enter Mali Losinj I can see that they have been doing their homework. That city looks good, they take care of the city/village. If you enter Porec, Novigrad, Umag etc it is a different story. You either end up in a building pit or find yourself on the main square which is surrounded with empty buildings with no paint. You will find grass, but it is between the stones in the pavement. It looks like nothing has been done there for the last 15 years. That is fine with me, but then you also have to leave the prices like 15 years ago.
Simply raising prices and giving nothing in return does not work and tourists do understand that, which is why Istria cannot attract more tourists. Cervar has become a ghost village, run down apartments, no restaurants (or perhaps 1), small market, deserted 'boulevard'. Not exactly something you would like to show to tourists.
If you have ever been to Italy you may have seen Rimini.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like Rimini at all, lived there for 6 months, but at least it is well organized, the place is finished and it has something to offer to tourists. I would never go there on holiday, but that is because I don't like mass tourism. But comparing Rimini to e.g. Porec, Novigrad, Umag, Mareda, Cervar it is quite clear that the latter have to learn a lot. And yet the prices here in Istria are higher than in Rimini !
That is when you know something is wrong and many tourists here in Istria have discovered that as well and are now moving to Dalmatia. The fact that the high way to Split is open helps a lot of course.
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Post by justapixel on Sept 4, 2007 12:37:14 GMT 1
You may believe it or not, but the average net income for an Italian lies around 800 - 1000 euro, while in the Netherlands and Germany it is 1200 to 1400 euro. That's strange because Italian GDP per capita is only about 10% lower than German. In Italy they might say they have too high tax burden, but it's actually lower than in many other EU countries where tax evasion is minuscule. I think that's just an excuse for tax evasion which is caused mostly by mentality, similar to the one in Croatia. That might also be the cause of lower salaries on paper, while actual salaries have to be considerable higher (see GDP), but are received through black market sources. .
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Post by pocketvenus on Sept 4, 2007 15:52:38 GMT 1
I have always wondered whether yanks come to Europe with the sole intention of being loud, ignorant and obnoxious? Why do they eat more than twice as much as the average European? Perhaps somebody could enlighten me?
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Post by pocketvenus on Sept 4, 2007 15:54:26 GMT 1
Mambo, my Italian friends claim the Russian mafia is big in Rimini? Is this true?
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Post by californiacro on Sept 4, 2007 17:04:32 GMT 1
I have always wondered whether yanks come to Europe with the sole intention of being loud, ignorant and obnoxious? Why do they eat more than twice as much as the average European? Perhaps somebody could enlighten me? Not all Americans are loud and vile.... that would be like saying all English folks have rotten, ugly, teeth. You have a few idiots I would dare to say half(all countries have them).... I don't really think that many of the loud mouths go to Europe or Croatia because I don't think they would find it on the map ;D As for the food..... I think many times Croatians eat and drink far more than Americans.... the difference... Croatians are walking WAY MORE.... Americans might eat less but they are sitting ALL DAY.... When I am home(Cro)... I walk to the stores and back & forth between friends & family homes. The car sits parked until we drive to the home on the coast. Otherwise it is all leg power and that means you are burning up calories and I can afford to have that cheese & olive oil dipping into delicious bread ;D When in the states the only walking I get is, the walks I take at night or from the parking lot into the store.... nothing is pedestrain friendly. There are good things in America but I feel the bad things now outweigh the good. But honestly pocketvenus your hate of Americans is unclassy. I bet if someone made a comment about Serbians the way you do of Americans there would plenty of comments from you.... about how racist blah blah blah....... Grow-up, find some class. There are American Croatians on here like Slatkica that don't deserve comments like that .
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Post by californiacro on Sept 4, 2007 17:10:46 GMT 1
Mambo, my Italian friends claim the Russian mafia is big in Rimini? Is this true? I don't think there is an area in the world that the Russian mob don't have a finger in.... I know in southern Calif.... they have control of Gas (petrol) they water down the gas sometimes.... the US has been having a difficult time of getting rid of them... but it is very difficult... they are like roaches... one mobster leaves only for another to pop back in and take the place. They are into everything from stealing cars and sending them back to Russia to drugs, prostitution and gambling.... it is scary stuff. Decent Russians are being pushed on for protection money and are fearful to file with the police because they know there will be retaliation. It is a sad situtation.
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Post by mambo on Sept 4, 2007 19:39:19 GMT 1
Already in 1995 and 1996 in Rimini they were present. All the hookers were from the former Sovjet Union and it was well organized. They would fly in, start working, buy clothes, shoes etc in Italy for reselling back home and thus they could make even more money.
Soon however we found all kinds of guys in black leather jackets with strange accents in the streets. The days of freewheeling for those girls were over.
And indeed you find them everywhere, also here in Croatia they are represented. Last year a group was arrested in Mali Losinj.
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Post by mambo on Sept 4, 2007 19:45:40 GMT 1
I also thought that we, in Holland, were paying the most amount of tax of all of Europe, but when I explained it to my (then) girlfriend she explained me what they pay in Italy and after adding everything up I had to concede that Italy has higher taxes. That is also the reason why they try to do so much in black. Also salaries go partly in black, the minimum is legal and the rest is black.
The North of course is extremely rich. The area from Milan until Treviso is most probably the richest area of all of Europe. Back in the 90's they had the highest concentration of millionaires per square km of all of Europe. The economy in Italy is now going a little worse and there is an enormous influx of immigrants, which pulls everything down (and none of the Italians are happy with it). It is not for nothing that Lega Nord is very popular in that area. Whenever Bossi comes to speak half Vicenza will be present, same goes for Padova and the rest of the cities.
If the North would have its way they would cut away from the South and kick all the immigrants out again. And to be honest............I can't blame them.
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