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Post by krkisland on Mar 30, 2008 18:29:54 GMT 1
Im currently getting quotes for building work from architects and I need to confirm when a contract is legal?
Does a written contract detailing all building works to be carried out with a company stamp (signed by both architect/project manager and client) count as a legal document or does this need to be signed in front of a notary to be legal document?
Before I make the first deposit transfer to fund purchase of materials and start building work I want to make sure the documentation im signing is legal so if there are any issues with the quality of work I can refer back to the document as a legal document stating what we originally agreed as part of the contract.
Some of the older fashioned architects in Croatia tend to write contracts by hand rather than using computers.
Regards C
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Post by mambo on Mar 30, 2008 19:03:16 GMT 1
I may have bad news for you.
Any contract in Croatia is basically worth...............nothing !
You may think that you have a stronger position if you have a contract, but the problem is that there is nothing you can do once the other party decides not to honor that contract. Yes, you could go to court, but be prepared that it may take 10 or 20 years to get some sort of a verdict and if the other party has good friends in the legal system you can kiss everything goodbye.
Croatians know very well that you can never enforce a contract and they basically laugh in your face when you arrive with the idea that a piece of paper can get them to work or deliver items on time.
By all means I would try to write things down on paper, pass by a notary, but how you handle it afterwards is more important. Never ever get in a position where you hand money to a party BEFORE they start working. You can pay for the materials, but make sure you pay them after the work is completed. And if you deal with architects.......pay them once the building permission is issued and not before. Also architects have a habit of leaving you with the problems (and extra cost) if they make a mistake which results in a denial of a permission.
It may sound terrible and over the top, but trust me, I also learned the hard way and it did cost me quite a lot of money. Now it doesn't happen anymore and I have made quite a number of enemies along the way, but at least it didn't cost us more money.
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Post by valiant on Mar 30, 2008 19:40:01 GMT 1
exactle mambo. we went thorugh a similar experience with an architect.
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Post by krkisland on Mar 30, 2008 21:00:54 GMT 1
As its only internal modifications to the house I believe I wont need building permission. I therefore need to try to manage the risk.
The architect wants some money up front to pay for materials. I need to try to find the safest way of doing this without losing this initial deposit.
Regards C
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Post by mambo on Mar 30, 2008 21:55:15 GMT 1
The architect is not building is he ?
If he wants to buy materials, let him make a list, an official quote and then pay the company directly yourself, have the materials delivered to your location and CHECK what they deliver. You won't be the first where the workers order some additional materials so that they can finish the work in their own houses as well. I won't say that every company works like this, but I think I have basically seen every trick in the book in this country. It never hurts to be over cautious, unless you have money to burn and judging the website that you run...............you may have some money to burn, so in that case simply set a limit to what you will accept and be happy.
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Post by krkisland on Mar 30, 2008 22:22:53 GMT 1
The Architect runs his own company and has his own builders working for him. He works as an architect / project manager also managing the project and builders.
It would be difficult ordering the materials to my location as my location is the UK so I will need to have some element of trust unfortunately. It wouldnt make sense to order the materials from croatia to uk then send them back to croatia.
Luckily the wife has some relatives in the locality of the renovation project so I can get them to observe and check on progress. Perhaps I can get them to check the materials I ordered arrive etc. As you say its probably best if I get him to list the materials required along with costs so I can pay directly from the UK (if possible).
He does seem to be genuine but I wont know for sure until he starts the project....and this is Croatia where anything can happen :-)
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Post by Aleksandra on Mar 31, 2008 1:33:57 GMT 1
I would imagine it is a civil engineer who manages the building work and not the architect? In any case, you should ask for a number of quotations as well as for references from completed jobs. The quotations should be reasonably broken down and then comparing them would allow you several things:
- to understand various type of work that needs to be done - to see if any of quotations has forgotten to include a piece of work that is necessary - to see if any of quotations has included extra work that is not necessary.
The prices of material can be verified - for example it is known how much is a cubic metre of wooden beams or how much a m2 of concreting cost. Hence the cost of materials should be similar between quotations and you can question ones that are way up or way down from the average.
Below is an example of the rough estimate one of our client asked for before they bought old ruin on Krk. Basically, they wanted to know what it would cost them to do it up. The company employed to do the estimate was paid for the building estimate only - the report the client got was a kind of like a building survey in UK plus rough break down of required work to renovate the property. As the company was only employed to do the survey, they had no vested interest in giving high or low building cost estimate. The report allowed the client to make a decision on purchase as well as to weed out rough traders once they started renovation project. Here is the extract of the work estimate they got (note - prices are probably a bit out of date by now):
The bigger areas of work required can be split as follows: a) Roof construction and roof replacement including gutters (approx EUR 6300) b) Floor beams and floor boards replacement (EUR 4200) c) Knocking doorways / openings between konobas and out of konoba 2 into garden (2500 EUR) d) Digging up septic tank (2300 EUR) e) Putting in the bathroom in the house (standard quality bath/wc/sink, includes plumbing) (3150 EUR) f) Re-wiring electricity (1800 EUR) g) Demolition of existing structures and disposal (roof, floor, etc.) (3000 EUR)
Finishing work would consist of: a) Taking plaster off and re-plastering first floor walls ( 2800 EUR) b) Boarding the ceiling once the roof is replaced (1600 EUR) c) Konoba walls to be made good by finishing in exposed stone or plastered over (2500 EUR) d) Tiling/flooring for konoba floors ( standard quality tiles, 2100 EUR) e) Finishing flooring of choice over floorboards on first floor (2900 EUR standard quality wood/tiles, or more if more expensive floor covering used) f) Replacing windows, doors and shutters, double glasing ISO thermal, standard quality (3900 EUR) etc.
It would be even better if you could obtain quotations that split each task on material cost + labour cost.
Good luck!
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Post by valiant on Mar 31, 2008 9:06:35 GMT 1
bathrooms are expensive!!!! i dont think that anyone would be happy splitting up the cost quotations of labour from the cost of material. dont think anyone, anywhere in the world would be happy with that. some clients become little dictators and expect way too much from workers, even harrison ford, the actor, said he couldnt stay a carpenter because of the people he had to deal with. ive also experienced it 1st hand, often its the client trying to get a discount by criticizing your work. clients should also be understanding and reasonable, unless of course the workers are truly idiots or something.
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 31, 2008 9:08:07 GMT 1
Hi krkisland, I'd support Mambo in everything he says. Don't regard the law as being of any use to you so make sure, financially, you 'get' before you pay. So long as your contractor understands that then that'll be a big hurdle out of the way.
As a matter of experience, I've reconstructed a house here and found that, bar one, all the majstors were good, honest and mostly did what I thought they were going to do. Where we fell down a bit was not adequately specifying EXACTLY what we wanted - so that's our fault really.
If you are building during the winter months, your contractors will likely be inlanders who go to the coast to work because it's too cold in the rural areas. They will be returning home in March so, any work not finished by then will probably sit there for months.
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Post by darcy on Mar 31, 2008 10:08:56 GMT 1
My only advise - do not pay anything in advance and then you really do not need any contract. Make your agreement is in writing, that is OK for clarity and mutual understanding (as Ribaric said), but do not consider it legally binding by any means.
Split the work into small manageable phases and pay upon successful completion. If the builder insists on advance payment, keep searching, he is not the guy you need. In case of the dispute, your position is hopeless.
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Post by valiant on Mar 31, 2008 10:54:10 GMT 1
a small advance payment is a good thing!!! imagine you were the builder and you have to believe that the client will pay in the end...some clients dont pay in after completion, even though the work is perfect. be reasonable please. just cos your giving someone a job doesnt mean you have the right to abuse them, they are also providing services, just cos theyre making a profit does not make them criminals. but spliting up into small work phases is good, good suggestion Darcy. workers can get very angry if they dont get payed: ive heard of windows and doors being removed from houses and even cars driven through entrance doors. clients can be just as bad as the workers.
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Post by darcy on Mar 31, 2008 14:01:44 GMT 1
Valiant, your advice makes sense, but tell us please what is in Croatia reasonable amount of "small advance payment". From where I am coming from quality builders will not even ask you for a "small advance" - they might ask for up-front costs (like council fees to lodge the plans and get the building approval - something unimaginable in Croatia). What is my experience, a quality builder would not even ask for a downpayment as he does not want to be paid before job is done.
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Post by valiant on Mar 31, 2008 14:07:57 GMT 1
they should all get an advanced payment, put yourself in their position. i dont know...just something symbolic so they can trust you...500 to 1000 euros, and if they want alot more, and wont even consider your offer, then thats a little suspect.
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Post by zorro on Mar 31, 2008 14:09:25 GMT 1
What is my experience, a quality builder would not even ask for a downpayment as he does not want to be paid before job is done. is this is Holland? .... in England builders always ask for some up front payment so they can go around the cafe for a couple of hours
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Post by darcy on Mar 31, 2008 14:22:10 GMT 1
Of course, it depends on the size of the job, but 1000 EUR is a 4 days wage for a qualified builder! Don't you think that is a little bit too much? (I am not taking into account any Croatian price factor, which in my case means - in Croatia everything is more expensive.)
Take it from a different angle - a builder can go broke and then what? On the other side, a house is there and it won't run away. Who should trust who?
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