retiring in croatia

[sweetpea]

Hi all,
I'll be retiring to Sipan, Croatia, in eight years' time, and have a LOT to do in that time! I'm currently living in San Francisco, expect to pop over for a month each year. My husband is Croatian, from Sipan, and we have a little piece of land there where we intend to build a small house and do the retirement things: chickens, milking goats, fruit and veggies. Swim, walk, eat, read. I'm a writer, he's an arachnologist, so I'll write and he'll spider.

I'm hoping for information on :
Can one get Aga, or Rayburn, or similar solid-fuel stoves in Dubrovnik?

Contact information for solar energy companies in Dubrovnik.

Thanks!

[Graham - Bosmere]

You will need a specific wood burner on Sipan. Make sure you do not get a coal or oil optimised stove. The only problem is that you will be classed as a wimp if you have heating during the winter. I have spent many happy hours freezing to death because it is not considered the thing to do to heat the house. As an arachnologist he will be in the right place. The spiders there are some of the biggest I have ever seen. There are a couple of newish books that you might be interested in. One is about the flora of Sipan and the other is called Ceasars Passage which is fictional but based on some real Sipan characters. Let me know if you want the details.

There are a few companies in DBV that supply solar water heating, but as far as I can remember the nearest place for photovoltaic suppliers is Split.

[sweetpea]

Hi Graham,
You live on Sipan??? How great! Where do you live? My husband and I will be retiring in Dubrava.

My mother-in-law and sister-in-law left this morning for Sipan; should be there tomorrow afternoon. My sister-in-law, Katarina, has a house in Luka Sipanska, where there is also a family house with about 12 co-owners, rather heavily used throughout the summer by family members.

The small house I'm planning will be passive solar heated in the winter - seems a pity not to make use of that 2600 hours of sunshine per year. The stove is basically for cooking, and with all the wood available, it seems reasonable to use that - we'll use the local tradition of a summer outdoor cooking area and a winter kitchen.

We don't heat our house in San Francisco. We share it with Darrell's parents, who live on the upper floor. We have the ground floor. The folks heat their section, but we don't , to their horror. But we are actually quite comfortable with an extra jersey and thick socks on chillier days. It's usually cold and wet here.

I lived on a smallholding for 11 years, with no grid or mains, and it was both doable and pleasant. However, I do like electric light, and good refrigeration...the paraffin lamps lost their glamour after a couple of years of wick trimming and chimney polishing. The Australians have developed some amazing 12V DC fridges and freezers; apparently they'll remain cold for seven days if there's a break in the power supply! We won't actually need mains power; our laptops can run on solar-charged batteries. It's going to cost a bit to set up the systems, but I can do it over the next several years, a bit at a time. The first thing is to get the house built.

Do you know the local builders? Last time we came over, we met a man called Miho who was restoring the old Glavic house. And Baldo, of course, though I don't think he builds for hire. Can you give me an idea of building costs per square meter? And doubtless we have to get a Croatian architect to draw up the plans to submit for a building permit - can you recommend someone?

We're coming over in the middle of September, with a sheaf of questions and ideas.

My husband, Darrell, would like to know if you're also into ancient history. Last time we were there, we met an English couple called Brian and Jane; Brian also has a metal detector and he's finding some amazing stuff, including one rare, extremely fine coin from the old Republic of Ragusa. Do you live on Sipan permanently?

Back to the stove; do you know of a place where I could get a wood-burning stove? I'd thought of Aga or Rayburn simpy because of their excellent reputation and 100-year guarantee! Plus they're very attractive.

There's a place 90 miles from us, called Real Goods. They have demonstration solar houses and amazing 12V appliances. We're planning a trip there soonish, to check it all out. 12V coffee percolators are very tempting to Darrell.

Thanks for taking the time to reply,

Suzanne

[alsdoubles]

Some of these entries are very 'new age.' Dubrava, the majority of my Croatian family own a lot Dubrava, many of them are buried in the graveyard which I visisted recently. It's a collection of half finished concrete houses. But I'm not criticising that. People can do what the hell they want. The views across the valley are superb. As good as a sea view. Vineyards forever. Wood burners....many, and you don't have to be a wimp to own one. I was here during the longest winter ever. We managed on a 12 fin oil heater and body heat. It was okay. I'm in Sibenik, just over the hill. Didn't want one BUT I have a concrete box there. Wanted a true Dalmarian stone house. But....
Concrete houses heat up like hell. Like batteries. I was wondering about ways to harness that. It seems wasted. (But the concrete does crack...it has to!)
Dubrava.....Restful. One of the things that sticks in my throat here is when the post office lady asks to open you mail and inspect it. Like...is she an ex KGB officer? A police officer? These things you have to think about. Red tape here is massive and tight.....around all the values of freedom you 'may' leave behind, in the west. But, it's a trade off. There's much to be desired in Croatia.

[Graham - Bosmere]

Alsdoubles, I think you have read something and made a large assumption - if you read the posts they do not refer to Dubrava near Sibenik, but a small hamlet elsewhere

[alsdoubles]

Yep, whoever you are...There are more than one Dubravas. I had a chat with my wife's cousin today, questioning him about a US prospective dweller in Dubrava, near Sibenik. He would know. His family's been there for centuries. Hundreds of them.
But, why do these petty 'Olgas' in the post office have to open your packages? Are they official, or are they just nosey? Answer that all you do gooders who have your heads buried well under reality. You send your kids back in wherever, a package, and some superior being without a title (other than a grey suit), has to ispect it. It stinks. In my opinion, and in most Croats I have spoken to about it. It totally stinks. Okay, you live in Rome you do as the Roman's do. But......Some of the Croat ways...well they just stink. And I live here. I am not talking from heresay. I live it, daily. Take HT Net. The most expensive phone/ Internet system you could ever imagine. They sell you the best ISDN equipment and....you can't plug a fax machine in to it. And the line rental is staggering. And the Internet costs...massive. And HT also control the TV Bingo and the Lottery. Does anyone ever win? Do roll overs ever happen? Who are HT Net? The state. The 22% VAT state. Is Croatia recovering? Yes....From the subscribers and anyone who spends a kuna. No floor limit on VAT. You sell an item- you pay, 22% to the goverment. Are taxes high in the Uk and USA? Are they?

[sweetpea]

Hi Alsdoubles,
Yes, I am talking about the hamlet Dubrava on the island of Sipan, not near Sibenik.

I understand a lot of what you're saying. I was born and grew up in what was then Rhodesia and is now Zimbabwe. I was ten years old when Ian Smith declared us independent of Britain, and I have vivid memories of the civil war that followed. Sanctions, and curfew, and bombs. Shortages of bread, pepper, toilet paper and many other things. And MONEY. The government levied a war tax on everybody's wages...

Body searches were routine at every store, every public building. Women this side of the barrier, men the other. One at a time, assume the position and be patted down by a security officer who also examined anything you were carrying. You did get to open your bag and empty your pockets yourself!

When I married for the first time, I moved with my then husband to South Africa, where the civil war was beginning to heat up. South Africa's a much wealthier country than Zimbabwe ever was, but nevertheless there were shortages. Again there was danger in leaving city limits. And searches came in again.

In both these countries, at these times, all our mail, both incoming and outgoing, was subject to checking at any time. Parcels being sent out had to be taken unsealed to the post office, where the clerk would inspect the contents, and could confiscate any item without giving any reason. Usually incoming parcels had already been opened and rummaged before one received them. For a while, incoming letters had been opened, and re-sealed with Post Office tape. Oh yes, telephone lines were routinely tapped!

My uncle in Zimbabwe can no longer afford to send letters. Inflation is out of control. The last letter he sent me, a standard airletter, one page folded on itself, cost him $350. Zimbabwe dollars, yes, but he has to live on Zimbabwe dollars.

So I understand, from experience, war and the aftermath of war, and I understand too that there may be bitterness towards foreigners who seem to be profiteering during a country's recovery period.

Alsdoubles, I do not intend to be confrontational - but I don't think that your local Olgas and high VAT can be blamed on the UK or the USA, or anywhere else in the world. There are petty officials everywhere, who make even necessary routines unpleasant for everyone. Every community has its gossips and troublemakers. VAT is high in other countries too. I do object to being called a do-gooder with a buried head.

Also, although I am South African, my husband's family on both sides is Croatian. The land of which I'm speaking has belonged to his mother's family for generations and will not be alienated from the family. After our time, it returns to the common holding. With value added.

We pay high income tax in the USA, although VAT runs a lot lower than in Croatia, at 8.25% for California. We pay federal tax, to the federal government, PLUS we pay state tax, to California. Americans pay incredible property taxes. During my retirement research studies, I was horrified to find out that Florida charges up to 25% of the assessed value of the property per year. For people like my husband and myself, and all of our friends, owning a home, even an apartment, is a pipe dream unless we move to the MidWest. My parents-in-law bought this house 40 years ago, when it was still possible for ordinary working people to buy a house in San Francisco - it was $40,000 then. A house on our street just sold for $750,000 a couple of weeks ago, and it's not a mansion. The property tax in our neighbourhood is 3%. $22,500 per year.

Medical insurance here is a nightmare; it's running just over $6,600 per year for a couple. The cost of medication is another nightmare. My mother-in-law needs blood-thinning pills (she had a minor stroke) that cost her $8 per tablet. That's $240 per month, for one medication. Many people will not be able to retire - because they can't afford medical services. Internet is relatively cheap, yes. Telephone: it looks cheap, but by the time all the line charges, levies and what have you are added, we find that we pay more for having the line than we do for the calls we make! Landline is still cheaper than cell phone - I believe that in Croatia the mobile phone is much cheaper than a fixed line.

I think that there is strong potential for a mutually beneficial interaction between would-be Croatian residents and Croatians.

The main reason for people like me to move to Croatia on retirement is because we love the country, we love the lifestyle. I love being able to sit and relax over a cup of coffee, and just watch the world go by. The architecture is wonderful. Nothing we find in the way of artifacts will leave the country - it will go to a Croatian museum. People like us aren't going to be living any kind of high life - but we will be bringing money into the country. Although we won't be paying income tax on it in Croatia, we'll be paying income tax on it in the USA! And we'll be spending our money in Croatia, in local stores, on food and toilet paper and toothpaste, where it goes directly into the local economy. In any country in the world, a cut of that will go to the government.

By the way, I had to laugh at your description of my ideas as New Age! I simply want to live in a way that does as little damage to Earth as possible, and makes as much sense as possible. I've lived for years where water was measured out by the cupful from a barrel brought in once a week. If I wanted hot water, I used a coil of black hosepipe in the sun. It will, in the end, probably cost less to put in a composting toilet, thereby saving precious water and preventing contamination of the groundwater (Dalmatia is karst country) through installing a septic tank. It sits better with my conscience to use a couple of solar panels for 6 lightbulbs, a battery charger, battery, and a 12V refrigerator than hooking onto mains electricity - which generates pollution. Wood is a highly renewable resource and a good wood stove emits very little pollution. Good house design keeps your home comfortable all year round, without expensive systems, or expensive building materials.

There are stinky US things. Like a small rural town we went to visit. It has 5 golf courses, and it's illegal to keep even six chickens even if you own a full acre or more of land. You can own potbellied pigs, because those are pets. Chickens are farm animals. Like in Los Angeles, where in some suburbs it's illegal to hang your washing outside to dry - lowers the tone of the neighbourhood. In some communities, like in Berkeley, it's illegal to paint your house any colour besides the one chosen by the residents' association - and you HAVE to buy your paint from them to ensure it's exactly the same shade as everybody else's. In one place I know of, you HAVE to have a strip of lawn 30 feet wide in front of your house, and you HAVE to mow it once a week, or be fined. Even more ridiculous: this is an arid area; in fact, it's desert.

Can we declare peace?

Suzanne

[alsdoubles]

sweetpea said:

The main reason for people like me to move to Croatia on retirement is because we love the country, we love the lifestyle. I love being able to sit and relax over a cup of coffee, and just watch the world go by.

This I like a lot. Your reply was a great eductaional email. My entry was a little flippant. On this message board I find many people here who are only here to promote thier own interests, and talk crap, basically.
Croatia IS peaceful. Watching the world go by. Yep, you can do that. The world goes by whether we are watching it, in it or or hating/loving it. Croatia is, in that respect rare indeed. I saw the biggest brightest metorite break up in the atmosphere a few weeks ago. It would have made the news in the UK. Not here. It was an amazing sighting. Truly anstonishing.
I wish you well. If you do make it and get here post a message on this board. You appear as a true human being.

[sweetpea]

Hi Alsdoubles,

Yes, it's the lifestyle, isn't it? That enthralling freedom to just be without any frantic pressure to do. Loll around in a cafe all afternoon, and nobody will bother you - the waiter will offer you glasses of water and the newspaper! No need to dredge up excuses or reasons for taking things slow and really really savouring them. I like seeing the way that people stroll in Croatia; the sun starts sinking and people come out, just to amble about and exchange some casual chat. I like seeing the groups of older people who gather on the benches in parks or on the waterfront, and hang out.

I love leisurely meals as well, the kind that go on for hours while one samples this, nibbles on that. I like the tiny stalls that sell fresh hot bread at 5am, and local bakeries where one can get bourek at midnight.

It seems to me that Croatians, and most Europeans, are generally more accepting of individualism, not to mention outright eccentricities. There's a popular book whose title translates to Dubrovnik's Originals. My husband read it and I looked at the pictures of these people who were definitely different. Croatians seem to define you less by your job, or your car and more by who you are, yourself. Maybe because the Westernisation tide is just starting to flow there? I have to admit that they do dress well, and respect good dressing. My MIL is always trying to smarten me up!

We'll arrive on Sipan on September 21. I'll pop in a post once we're there.

[Ruza]

My parents have retired and gone to Croatia....

The change of lifestyle has added at least 5 years to their life....It's great!

[Nigel]

All this sitting around doing nothing sounds fun, but who is actually running the country while everybody in the country is sitting around doing nothing!
No wonder that the average monthly wage is only 500 Euros

[sweetpea]

The average monthly wage is not a problem, given that the average Croatian seems to live a pretty good life on it... one can afford shelter and food and clothes, at least. You don't read about Croatians having to choose between food and vital medications, as you do here. Here in wealthy San Francisco, where everybody's rushing around doing things and busily running the country, striving for progress, there's a serious homelessness problem. Many of the wheelers and dealers living in high style are only one paycheck away from homelessness themselves. If the job goes, the whole house of cards tumbles down. This looks like a booming economy here, but as Buchanan et al have pointed out, it's a mass of bubbles that need constant whisking to survive. It's constant consumer spending that gives the illusion of prosperity here. Which wouldn't be a problem if people were spending their own, or even if they were spending real money. But they aren't. This whole society is leveraged on debt - the Fed keeps debit interest low, and actually penalises those who do live within their income by keeping investment interest at or even below the rate of inflation. One can dabble in stocks, of course, but that's also not real money.

Quality of life and lifestyle are often confused. To me, quality of life means having the time to do nothing, and do it well. Time to take those leisurely walks, grow a goodly percentage of my own food, read the books piled on my shelves, write the stories I really want to write, be in close touch with my friends and family.

Depends on what you want, really. I want time and freedom. I can, and do, happily live without the "lifestyle" things. I can see that for people who want "more" it's going to cost a lot more, and then the average wage would be a problem. And I do practice what I preach! I live on less than half my current income - nowhere NEAR high level, and save the rest so I can afford to retire when I'm 52. I see it as having more.

Gene Logsdon says it well in The Contrary Farmer: "it has never been easier than today to save money. The more things cost, the more you save by not buying them."