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Post by Josh on Apr 8, 2004 15:49:17 GMT 1
So, Aljosa, one of the problems Croatia has is that there are still some Serbs left? Croats in Croatia afraid to say they are Croats for the presence of Serbs? What, the genocide of the 1940’ and the ethnic cleansings of the 1990’ didn’t finish the job? Hey, I agree – one is too many!
I think this is a good place to quote Mr Ante Starcevic, the revered father of Croatian nation, on what he had to say about those wicked Serbs: “…garbage, slaves, cheats, scum of European, Asian and African slaves. Slav-Serbs are by nature meant for slavery, for every evil, like pigs are for mud. All the crimes of the criminals at a penitentiary would not make up three percent of the crimes, wickedness that are in secret dreamed and in reality performed by the best, most honest Slav-Serbs. ... The pigs should be stopped in their tracks.” (Chosen Writings, Zagreb, 1943)
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Post by A on Apr 8, 2004 16:00:57 GMT 1
"All the crimes of the criminals at a penitentiary would not make up three percent of the crimes, wickedness that are in secret dreamed and in reality performed by the best, most honest Slav-Serbs. ..." Nowadays, the common sense dicates that it's not permisible to use the word 'the best, most honest' for such criminals. Dr Ante Starcevic is a bit out of date and what he says should be a bit revised
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Post by B on Apr 8, 2004 16:17:23 GMT 1
Yea..I admit, the rest of wording isn't appropriate neither, and various pet lovers societies would surely agree with me.
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Post by Peters on Apr 8, 2004 17:44:08 GMT 1
My dear boy, so your racial purity makes it impossible to be wrong or talk rubbish? Or when you say 'it is only the Brits who think there is still a war on' you have some evidence to support it? No, I didn’t think so.
I always find it difficult to argue with people who answer themselves!
I speak as I find. I live in Croatia and I meet foreigners every week. I can also read car number plates.
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Post by Josh on Apr 9, 2004 5:55:53 GMT 1
I, on the other hand, find it difficult to talk to people who are patronising, but still… So Peters is your number plate analysis the evidence than? (Have you ever consider geographical factors by any chance? Here is a question that might help: Which nation, speaking in general terms of course, knows more about French affairs and drives there in greater numbers - Brits or Russians? And why do I have a feeling you are going to say Russians? ) 2 A,B Guys I'm glade you liked the quote. Only it is not nice twisting Dr Starcevic's words! He must have made much effort while writing and, no doubt, used his faculties to the maximum. He didn’t say that those criminals are good and honest but that even the best and most honest among the "Slav-Serbs" are so much worse than the jailed criminals. You see, there is no chance that he thought that the "Slav-Serbs" are good or honest compared to normal people. No. Simply that even the best (Serbs) among the worst (Serbs) are still so much worse than the worst (Croats) among the best (Croats). Complex? I'm telling you, he used his faculties to the maximum. OK, I know you got exited reading such fine words from Dr Starcevic, but please preserve his memory by reading carefully before you start to correct him! Regarding the description of pigs in derogatory terms I must admit you are right. Such behaviour would not be tolerated now. (Dr Ante was lucky not living in times obsessed with political correctness.) Insulting pigs, or any other farm animals, is no longer acceptable. Insulting Serbs however is, luckily, still desirable.
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Post by Anja on Apr 9, 2004 10:31:26 GMT 1
Well something resembling war is happening right now in Kosovo, which is NOT closer to Greece than to Croatia – unless people consider Dubrovnik to be outside Croatia. (And both states are separated from Kosovo only by small neighbouring countries.) When an average foreign person glances over the news, he may be forgiven to think that ‘something is going on’ in the region. Further, Croatia’s war propaganda was very strong and active and in order to gain support abroad much noise had to be made and things had to be exaggerated. This was right and proper under the circumstances but the downside is this image of big war in the region created in the mind of many. Dubrovnik is an excellent example – I heard so many times that ‘it is a great shame that beautiful old city of Dubrovnik is completely destroyed’! Also, it is not true that “it is only the Brits who think there is still a war on.” It is normal that people in Austria or Germany have greater knowledge of Croatia's affairs due to the large Croat guest-workers community and because Germans and Austrians holiday in Croatia more than other European nations, but mild ignorance is present everywhere, even in, oh dare I say it, in Croatia. And the fact that Brits haven’t gone back to Croatia in greater numbers (yet) lays much in the fact that other Mediterranean countries have been busy improving their tourism industry while Croatia was busy building independence (and sorting out the minority problem in the process). Finally, I really do not understand ever-present anti-British (anti-English?) slur and insinuations on this forum and generally in Croatia. I find it very distasteful and it only shows extreme narrow-mindedness. Josh I would not agree with existance of anti-britishism in Croatia. Kosovo matter would be sorted and gone with if Serbs give up on Kosovo and parts of Montenegro where Albanian nationals are in big majority. I think majority of Serbians also want peace and do not bother about the borders and who will administer Kosovo. Nothing to do with Croatia but I feel Albanians are fighting for the same thing as Croats once did, freedom from Serbia.. I hope you agree with this Josh. Regarding ignorance about Croatia and its potentials, and considering how many foreigners are moving to live in Croatia at the moment , I do not fear at all that Croatia will be well known VERY SOON. Clever and professional people without prejudice will get there first, for the the rest - sorry but it is their own fault.. When the big amount of investment is involved, then the investor will do everything to change the media perception..and they are already doing it..
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Post by AB on Apr 9, 2004 17:19:15 GMT 1
Josh, I didnt say I liked the quote (i didn't know it before). I don't think it was an extreme example of animosity in his own time and circumstances, if that's what you wanted to suggest. There were worse, not only in words but deeds: when he speaks of pigs, one must know that this probably contains the reference to the most extreme cruelty practiced by the Serbs, say:
"The Karageorgevic dynasty was founded by Karageorge ("Black George") Petrovic, a pig farmer who by his own admission killed 125 men with his own hands, his stepfather and brother among them."
The Serbian 'nobles' came among pig famers and their cruelty and wrechedness is therefore compared the way it is. So it means more than a nasty insult as it would be understood today... In this sense we can 'revise' a bit not Dr Starcevic's message, but the words to avoid confustions, yet w/o losing his point....
As to insulting the Serbs today, you can't fight popular sentiment about those who left so much destruction and death behind themselves. But what we can do is to become aware of what we have and preserve Croatia, which means not to give them yet another chance to repeat the scenario. The fact that we asked nothing but not being opressed reflected very negatively on Croatia's peace time development and our overall integration in the West: we want more now and that's why we chose the politicians throug democratic processes -- to act from this point on. I admit, we all just too often content ourselves with this much, not to be opressed, but it's time we moved on. Only then you can hope that the insults won't matter as they won't be necessary; once we have a sense of true security....
Guys I'm glade you liked the quote.
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Post by Culchie on Jul 5, 2004 0:35:47 GMT 1
Could anyone recommend a good book on Croatia and it's recent history?
Thanks
Culchie
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Post by Vanessa on Jul 9, 2004 10:50:25 GMT 1
???Belatedly joining the discussion - It's very difficult to discuss issues when people have a chip on their shoulder - isn't it Josh? As to the perception correct or false of the Serbs, doesn't the recent elections near- disaster speak volumes? While Seselj sits in the Hague prison as a war crimes indictee, his deputy nearly wins majority votes in Serbia. And were it not for economic reasons, one may suspect that indeed Seselj's followers, with their (generally known as fascist) agenda - could have won...After the colapse of Milosevic's disastrous politics in the Balkans,the shame of his capture before the eyes of the world and the humiliating courtcase during which his behaviour is said to be even more uncivil than Saddam's, the best thing Serbia and the Serb nation could do would have been to distance themselves from what was done in its/their name and show regret and apologise. With all fairness and admitting many mistakes in the politics of Tudjman/Croatia and certain sections of Croatian nation, the media in Croatia have been immensely more open to self criticism than in Serbia, often at its own disadvantage. Anyway, it is a beautiful, but so far rather badly run country. With all the disadvantages EU may bring to it, there will be one big advantage to hope for: LAW and ORDER, to erradicate corruption. Then we shall all enjoy Croatia that much more!
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Post by Boban on Jul 9, 2004 17:11:14 GMT 1
Look, it is a simple as this...the serbs wanted "greater serbia" and started and lost 4 wars. No-one stepped one centi-metre on their land. All fighting was started by serbs and was all done outside serbia. They started and lost wars and hundreds of thousands of people were killed and/or ethically cleansed. What the serbs did in places like Vukovar and Srebrenica (both not in serbia!!) was sickening and will not be forgotten. Serb apoligists who try to say "all sides were equal" are a joke.
They attacked and occupied over a third of Croatia for 4 years. Croatians were cleansed from certain areas of Croatia. Imagine that?!?!?! We were killed and cleansed in our OWN country just for the fact we weren't serbs!?!?!? Croatians who lost family and property in their own country will NEVER forget what happened, nor can any idiot expect they would/should.
Shelling of beautiful places like Dubrovnik (with no possible military "justification" by the serbs) further illustrates just what we were dealing with. Now some expect after all that was done to us, that we will welcome them back to our country with open arms?!?!?! No way!
If someone doesn't want to follow our laws in Croatia, they they can go somewhere else.
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Post by Jackeen on Jul 10, 2004 2:16:59 GMT 1
Culchie, Books on Croatian History.
Croatia a nation forged in War, By Marcus Tanner.
Croatia a History, By Ivo Goldstein
If you want a really good read, Rebbeca West's Black Lamb Grey Falcon is a book worth buying as it's a overall view of Yugoslavia prior to World war two.
Waterstones or Hodge Figgis on Dawson Street stock these books or they will order them if out of stock.
Regards
Jackeen
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Post by Graham - Bosmere on Jul 11, 2004 21:47:29 GMT 1
Try David Owens book if you want to get the details of stubborn nationalists who put their own personal position before the majority of the people in their countries.
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Post by Vanessa on Jul 12, 2004 9:58:06 GMT 1
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Post by Graham - Bosmere on Jul 12, 2004 11:08:51 GMT 1
Have you read the book Natasha?
If so you will realise it details a lot of inside information about how the leaders of the various factions, including the EU, conducted themselves. Anyone with an open mind can see where he attempts to cover his own problems.
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Post by Janet on Jul 15, 2004 17:43:37 GMT 1
Don't all bite my head off, but I did find Misha Glenny's Fall of Yugoslavia factually excellent. You can take or leave his emphasis as you choose (as Graham says, if you've got half a brain).
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