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Post by Carol on Aug 31, 2005 21:34:24 GMT 1
Please.... no scots v. english debate. Its been done to death over the last 20 years.
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Post by ghostwriter on Sept 1, 2005 7:49:15 GMT 1
Please.... no scots v. english debate. Its been done to death over the last 20 years. ;D Same with Croatians V. Serbs. It trully gets old does it not ;D We have to find some other countries to pick on...hahaha. How about the Americans.... East coast V. West coast. That should be a good one. I have been to both. I say I prefer the West coast better, nicer beaches(less sharks) hahaha ;D
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Post by abc123 on Nov 19, 2010 12:59:03 GMT 1
i don't know what to say on this, i am from Croatia and i live here, i actually like brits, but i cant belive this! and i dont hate my country, i hate its politics -.-
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Post by mambo on Nov 19, 2010 13:12:14 GMT 1
I would not say that Croatians hate Brits, but many Croatians hate all foreigners, they simply don't want them in their country and they will openly tell you this. I have heard and seen it many times in in Istria.
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Post by crojoe on Nov 19, 2010 13:44:57 GMT 1
It's not that Croatian hate Brits, it's more they have a fear of foreigners brought on by all the scare stories in the news such as:
Foreigners buying all the good property. Foreigners renting their apartments and not paying taxes. Foreigners forcing the government to abide by EU laws (when Croatia wants to join). For a while it was about the Chinese taking over business. It was about foreign shopping centres coming in and wiping out local trade (while Konzum reigns supreme)
While foreigners may be buying property, renting apartments, the Gov. being told to straighten up..... most of it has had Croatian involvement. It's the Croat who sold the property, it's the Croat Gov. that wants to join the EU. Also, I dare say there is probably a 10,000 Croat to 1 foreigner who rents their apartment and doesn’t pay tax.
It's a funny love/hate relationship. Croatia benefits greatly on foreigners visiting their wonderful country, but then they don't really like it when foreigners come and do business here. As a foreigner living in Croatia, I would say the amount of foreigners doing business here that you might say (steals away a job from a Croatian) is very small. Now, I am not talking about Bosnians or people from the neighbouring ex-Yugo countries. I do notice that Croatians listen to a lot of hearsay about news and via the Chinese telephone method (ear to ear). Most Croatians that have lived or worked abroad have a much clearer prospective of the foreign community in Croatia, how small it really is and how it is not a threat, while those remaining in the country get feed doses of anti-foreigner input and have their minds made up for them.
Even at MUP they are in a set mind-mould. One of their officials was complaining to me how so many foreigners are now in Zagreb. When I pressed them for the number, it turned out they where talking about Bosnians (since they are also foreigners), and that the actual EU foreigner community (even USA citizens, Aussie, Canadian and other nations such as India or even Chinese nationals) was very small. Take away all those working for foreign embassies and it gets even smaller.
It's ironic, as so many Croats live and work abroad in other people’s countries, and in doing so also take away a job from someone local. That’s international business, something I would say certain Croats have a hard time understanding.
Yes, there was a war, yes Brit. and other countries stood by and did nothing or took sides, but that’s now the past. Can't be like the elephant who never forgets. Got to get on with life and change. That’s the other thing many Croats hate…. change.
The day I walk down town Zagreb or any major Croat city and start seeing a huge mix of colour and creed of peoples, then, maybe then Croats can start to complain about all the foreigners. The 500,000 people out of work right now are not due to foreigners, but rather the local system.
The local people can't even be self-employed here without jumping through a three ring circus, paying a load of money to open a d.o.o., degrees and what not. Imagine if you could just fill in one form to inform the tax office you started self-employment today (even do it on-line) and away you went. No 20,000 Kuna deposit in a bank, no 500 euro lawyer fees to open a company and no book keeper. It can be done (many countries do that today). It all comes down to a willingness to make it happen, a design to succeed. This fine small little country (as that is what it really is in regards to land mass and population to world standards) could be rich, successful and be very open to the world. But. alas, certain powers that be seem to want to hold onto their own little agendas and hold the rest of the population back.
So, do Croats hate Brits? My answer would be: NO! The Croat mentality is very temperamental, very here and now, and sadly not always about facing up to the facts. This all said and done, I have great Croat friends, live here, work here and so far surviving. At least my Croat friends enjoy my parties and the free food. Ha!
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Post by ray51 on Nov 19, 2010 15:34:57 GMT 1
Disagree ! IMHO , most Croats are seriously severely prejudiced against the Brits and the French and also , for some unexplainable reason , they deride the Belgians , too ! That's from the same group of people who appear quite so wordly that thay can't decide if "L" on a EU car No-plate stands for Latvia , Lithuania , Liechtenstein ( sic! ) , Labrador , a driving school , or Los Bandidos/Los Lobos/Lambada ( of course : they'd never think of Luxembourg ! actually...) ; - whoever I've met , seems to ( all too loudly and ill-informedly )think that in the whole 20th century , 't was the Brits and the French ( besides the Serbs and after them : the Yankees ) who ruined all Croat national interests , whatever those might have been , if any ( ( ? ) ... And , if you take a Homo Zagrebiensis to London town , doesn't matter if you talk and walk Hampstead , Chelsea , Kensington , Mayfair , Knightsbridge , Piccadilly , Tower Bridge , Richmond , Wimbledon , Kingston , Esher ...wherever - they get so green with uncontrolled disapproval and envy , they'd love to watch it all be nuked and burnt down and A.S.A.P. ! Seen this : many a time , with many a face , from all walks of life , embassy attachees to Red Cross employees , chefs to secretaries , teachers to ( shady ) public servants ... And what , pray , is at all international about Zagreb - except for their dreams of Austro-German supremacy and of ( silly promises by the late , not-so-great , Frankie T. ) some future Swiss/Swedish living standards ? Yup , at my advanced age , I rest my case .
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Post by justapixel on Nov 19, 2010 16:11:26 GMT 1
The only Croat I know that hates Brits is actually a Bosnian Muslim living in Munich. ;D
Yes, many people disapprove of the British stance during the war, but that doesn't translate to people or culture. .
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Post by ray51 on Nov 19, 2010 16:35:46 GMT 1
Yes, many people disapprove of the British stance during the war, but that doesn't translate to people or culture. . Err ...which war could that be , exactly ? The Boer war ? The WWI , arranged by the Brits , with a view to demolish Germany and the Habsburg Empire ? The WWII , resulting from the unjust conclusion of WWI and the following crisis de-luxe ? The Iraq war ? Chechnia ? Falklands ? Afghanistan ? Balkan wars ? How does British "stance" differ from those of Russian , Chinese , Canadian , Spanish , South African , Ozzie or many other stances , pray ? Of all the ( too many ) member-states of the U.N. , how many were at all helpful ( to anyone ) in Balkan wars , exactly ? Yes , Douglas Hurd was useless or worse ; the same you can say of Lord Owen ; or of Lawrence Eagleburger , Henry Kissinger ...; - is there anything positive one can say about the usefulness of the Yanks , the French , the Dutch , the Russians , the Indians or any other nation "involved" , in what they saw as Balkan wars ? Briefly , my point is : just how much good have the beloved Krauts , Oesterreicheirs , Itaes , Schweizer all done for HR , in the 90's ? ( - as opposed for grabbing maximum control of her various markets , in cases they deemed profitable !) Still , I maintain that most Croats really dislike and envy the Brits , rightly or wrongly - in my own experience , the Croats dislike the Brits more than most other nations - and they are just soooo Wrong ! O.K. , I'll shut up now and forever keep my peace , cheers !
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Post by justapixel on Nov 19, 2010 17:23:36 GMT 1
Err ...which war could that be , exactly ? The Boer war ? The WWI , arranged by the Brits , with a view to demolish Germany and the Habsburg Empire ? The WWII , resulting from the unjust conclusion of WWI and the following crisis de-luxe ? The Iraq war ? Chechnia ? Falklands ? Afghanistan ? Balkan wars ? That's a lot of words for saying absolutelly nothing. How does British "stance" differ from those of Russian , Chinese , Canadian , Spanish , South African , Ozzie or many other stances , pray ? They were actively pursuing the policy of laissez faire combined with strengthened arms embargo, which basically meant "Let the Serbs sort the thing out, and let them do it quickly". That policy was very, very wrong. Similar mistakes went through the war in Bosnia, where French took over the British role. All that circus finally ended with Srebrenica debacle and Oluja. They policy above differed from the ones of USA, Germany and most neighboring nations (Hungary, Austria, Italy) that have since been considered allies of Croatia. Of all the ( too many ) member-states of the U.N. , how many were at all helpful ( to anyone ) in Balkan wars , exactly ? Yes , Douglas Hurd was useless or worse ; the same you can say of Lord Owen ; or of Lawrence Eagleburger , Henry Kissinger ...; - is there anything positive one can say about the usefulness of the Yanks , the French , the Dutch , the Russians , the Indians or any other nation "involved" , in what they saw as Balkan wars ? As I said, the policy was proactively detrimental. Briefly , my point is : just how much good have the beloved Krauts , Oesterreicheirs , Itaes , Schweizer all done for HR , in the 90's ? ( - as opposed for grabbing maximum control of her various markets , in cases they deemed profitable !) They did help when help was needed. Later however, whoever came would have played the same role, because the rules of international business are universal. And Croatia is obviously within German and Italian zone of influence, but not within Dutch or British. Still , I maintain that most Croats really dislike and envy the Brits , rightly or wrongly - in my own experience , the Croats dislike the Brits more than most other nations - and they are just soooo Wrong ! O.K. , I'll shut up now and forever keep my peace , cheers ! Errr... ok, disliking anyone is wrong, but who would you prefer to be disliked here instead? ;D At least, British politics have earned them that dislike, the same way that Croats are frowned upon for history filled with figures such as Pavelić or Tuđman. .
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dennisc
Full Member
[M0:0]
Posts: 47
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Post by dennisc on Nov 19, 2010 19:06:47 GMT 1
Wow! now this has turned into a nice juicy debate...with lots of differing opinions, reading it was a real eye opener in itself especially the petty squabbling
My input would be...that its probably more Croats disliking brits due mostly to the misinformation dished out during/after their homeland war and those that have not really challenged or gone against common thinking...its very easy for some people to believe the croatian medias opinion on the british during the war because basically there was no different opinion. British dislike towards the Croatians must be from a small minority...remember britain has 60 million people and no one i know has made any bad generalizations about Croatians, but I know there has been
Just a few of my experiences:
I am labeled a Serb lover just because I don't entirely blame the serbs for all the atrocities that happened during the Yugoslav war.
I am British so, I supported the british governments shenanigans during the Yugoslav war. (for some peoples information the British were there under the banner and COMMAND of the EU...Srebrinica I think we were blamed the most for, was actually commanded by the French even though it was british peacekeepers)
We started stuck up for our friends the Serbs to start WW1...actually we came in because of an old treaty to defend belgium if she was threatened, because russia declared war on Austria....russia's ally was france which had a pact with belgium and Germany declared war on france.
We carried out a few raids on Croatian region to protect serbs during WW2...The Ustashe was attacking our allies (the partisans...which were also Croatians).
I am seen as a troublesome Brit...because I am daring to question why I have to pay this and that unexplained charge and not just settling for the "thats just what we must do" or "everybody else is doing it, so i must"...quite basically, thinking out of the norm gets you labeled
On the other hand
the Partisans were our most reliable weapon during WW2 and to show our appreciation I think Yugoslavia (including Croatia) was one of the first countries to be totally liberated.
While all countries across europe were limiting or dragging their feet about Asylum during the Yugoslav war...we welcomed refugee's unconditionally (because so many took advantage of this thats why Visa's were introduced.
Not forgetting the Media when its a low news day...fueling everybodies opinions (british and Croatians)
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Post by newhere on Nov 19, 2010 20:44:42 GMT 1
The British press report good things about Cro, (the coast, travel magazines)...and the Cro press 99% report crap and commit sh.tstirring about the British...misquoting usually...and 99% of Croatians believe it...thats where the bad feelings come from in the first place!
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Post by mambo on Nov 19, 2010 22:24:37 GMT 1
@ Justapxel,
Having spent 4 years in this war I can safely tell you that you are not a little bit wrong, but completely wrong with your assessment and conclusions about the Balkan war.
First: No country can intervene in ANY war without ANY resolution from the UN. If they would intervene they become a warring faction themselves, which means they become part of the conflict.
Second: The UN decided to a monitoring role, not a peace keeping nor peace enforcing role. If you don't know the difference, look it up on Google, but understanding this difference is vital for understanding the role Europe and other countries played in this war.
Third: Not a single member of the UN was allowed to step outside the official ROE's (Rules of Engagement), set by the UN.
Fourth: After the UN decided to install a no flight zone NATO became involved, since they had the means to enforce this resolution. The result was that we had NATO having all the fire power in the world, but unable to use it because they had to obey to existing resolutions.
Fifth: The military of the countries involved had no own agenda nor any authority to act outside the UN or NATO within the theatre of operations. In other words, if you wanted to use your military you had to ask permission from the UN. Therefore stating that some countries actively helped Croatia while others did not is incorrect.
It is true however that politicians of these countries had their preferences and especially the French were very clever in this approach. They knew that after the war a lot needed to be rebuild, so they already sent their business men to Sarajevo while the French were in command of the airport. And to no surprise they did get all the contracts after the war. Neither the Brits, the Dutch or any of the other countries wanted to step outside the UN guidelines and thus you did not see their business men travelling in and out of Bosnia under military protection. Only when the war was over, when civil air transport was re-installed, the business traffic started again.
Sixth: The Russians were favoring the Serbs in this war and were blocking any resolution which was against the Serbs. Since they are a member of the Security Council with a Veto right the result was that the UN could never make a fist.
Seven: The installment of the safe havens was the biggest military blunder...........made by politicians. All military advisors told the politicians not to install pockets behind enemy lines, but politicians refused to listen and thus they set the stage for Sbrenica. All of us knew that the safe havens could be used (and effectively were used by the Serbs) to black mail the UN. They regularly cut off all connections to the safe havens, refusing to let supplies in and it should therefore be no surprise that the military commanders wanted to get rid of the safe havens as fast as possible. They did envision that the safe havens would not hold out for a long time, but they did not envision what Mladic had planned.
So please Justapixel, try to find the truth before writing down all kinds of thoughts which bear no truth at all.
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Post by crojoe on Nov 19, 2010 23:49:42 GMT 1
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Post by crojoe on Nov 20, 2010 0:18:39 GMT 1
While it might be true with some to "race-hate" brits, but I know for a fact that the former UK Ambassador was quite liked amongst the people. I understand he was one of the few Ambassadors who actually learned Croatian well enough to hold a press conference or hold a good conversation on tv. Many people like British football teams, many Croats know a lot about UK society and laws. Actually, many a Croat would like to go work in UK if they could. They also know all the trash from tabloid papers and TV programs. Probably some Croatians know more about UK workings then Croatia. Some base of the Croatian law system is based on UK law, although somewhere it got a bit mixed up, interpreted wrong and adapted for self interests.
It's true they have very close links to Austria and Germany, Germany being like a respected older brother. Prior to the Euro, it was all about German Mark. Then you got say at least 1 million Croats working & living in Germany (be interesting to see the actual figure).
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Post by gary on Nov 20, 2010 12:27:25 GMT 1
I remember that ambassador, wasn't he the the guy that spoke good Croatian with a home counties accent?
Do Croats hate the Brits? I know that they have a different attutude to the English compared to the Scots.
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