Golf

[Carol]

More about investment than just property but this article does beg the question as to why Croatia doesn't feel that 1.5 - 2 bn euros would help the economy in Croatia and would therefore be worth removing a few bureaucratic hurdles? (that's 10.950.000.000,00 kn for those who prefer to think of it this way!)

QUOTE
There are currently 11 golf courses in Turkey, eight of which are in Antalya and three in Istanbul. With new courses under construction in the Antalya region, the total number is expected to reach 21 by the end of 2008. Turkish Golf Federation chief Ahmet 􀀤􀃵􀁄􀁒􀃵􀁏􀁘 said these courses were among the best in the world. “Between May 2006 and May 2007, Turkey had an income of 160 million euros from golf tourism. That is a pretty good amount, when we reach 100 courses, the income will increase to 1.5-2 billion euros.” He added golf tourism’s share in the general tourism income of developed countries was 15-20 percent while it is 0.4 percent in Turkey. “Foreign investors are willing to enter the Turkish golf tourism market,” 􀀤􀃵􀁄􀁒􀃵􀁏􀁘 stressed, “but more than 100 Turkish investors are in line, too. All the Turkish investors are very successful at construction of golf courses, management, and marketing.
I do not think that foreigners will have a chance in Turkey.”
UNQUOTE

[Madgolfer]

Carol, did you post this just to whet my appetite and get me on my soap box ! At last a subject I know a little bit about !

As the name suggests, I love golf and am involved in trying to bring golf course investment to Croatia. The Croatian Govt. have made a good deal of effort in preparing for foreign investors wishing to undertake development here. They say all the right things and have produced some very pretty literature on the subject..........all without having the slightest understanding of what they are doing. Quite frankly it is a fiasco!

Two of the investment groups we have entertained since 2006 have already concluded negotiations in other Countries (Hungary and China) where the flexibility and basic concept of what investors require is understood. These two groups alone have signed investment projects for some €16M........alas not in Croland !

Of the 50 or so "approved" sites pre-identified by the Croatian Govt, (16 of which I have visited) I would be very surprised if even half of them were of sufficient size, had anything like the available infrastructure or have a local authority prepared to grant the necessary planning applications !

On top of this there has been very little invested in preparing the Croatian public for "Golf", they simply do not know anything about the game and as any golf course developer will tell you, there has to be a core membership ("the playing and paying public") to break even on the running costs in the first 10 years. If they think it will maintain itself based just on tourism alone they are very, very wrong.

There are many reasons why Croatia would make an excellent European golf destination and why course development would be a good long term investment, unfortunately Croatia is missing the boat.

I can bang on about this pet hate/hobby of mine for hours so if anyone is genuinely interested and would like further reading, please fell free to contact me by PM or email.

Thanks Carol, I am going off to calm down now ! (lol)

[upthevilla]

As far as i know there are 3 such proposed golf courses in Istria.
Baring in mind in the last 8 years i have had many conversations about a golf course and the reply is always "a golf course is being opening next year". I suppose one year they will be right.

Nr motovun project.
just got refused again aboout a month ago, i think they wanted a hotel there with about 250 beds and the government/ local council said its to many and will only permit up to 150 beds.

Liznjan, bought a few years ago, fantastic venue. Last I heared was that the American owner was still in negotiations and waiting on a piece of paper * we all heard that before*

Nr Porec. another well designed course with lots of famous golfers endorsing it , but still no holes in the ground.

There is very little argument that a golf course here would be a huge success. We all know golfers have the balls to play anywhere

[Madgolfer]

"We all know golfers have the balls to play anywhere"

Dont even go there with the golfing jokes Upthevilla or I might have to retaliate with some about football (lol)

[mambo]

I know there is a British group which is now acquiring building permissions for some new hotels and they are also planning to start construction of a golf course this year.
However, we have had this discussion on Golf many times and nothing has changed since then. Like madgolfer states there are no golfers in Istria (at this moment there are about 35 registered players) which makes running a golf course near to impossible (unless these 35 want to dish up the enormous amount of money necessary for the upkeep).

The type of tourists we get in Istria are also not the 'golfing' type tourists and in order to just break even on green fee players you will need over 200 players per day !
Good luck trying to find them.

In addition the climate is such that the period of playing golf is severely limited. In the winter it is way too cold (even much colder than e.g. the Netherlands, Germany etc), during the summer it is way too hot, which leaves only April, May, September and October and unfortunately it rains a bit too much during that period.

If developers fail to understand these fundamental climate differences and do not understand the reasons why 'golfers' play golf, when 'golfers' play golf and where 'golfers' play golf, they deserve nothing less than to go bankrupt, for that is where a project like a major golf course will end.
As long as developers compare Turkey, Portugal and the south of Spain to Croatia/Istria I know that we are talking about developers who basically have no clue what they are talking about. A sure way to loose your money or they have only one interest and that is to cash in ASAP by selling the project and have it financed by a third party (or the government).

I am a pretty fanatic golfer, but I haven't picked up my clubs here in Istria over the last 4 years to hit a few balls near Motovun (where they have something they call a '6-hole golf course'). And if you realize that I was used to playing/practicing every day of the week it must mean that there is something wrong.

[Carol]

Mambo are you saying that people do not play golf in turkey, portugal and spain during the summer months when it is equally as hot as croatia?
My understanding of what makes golf course development profitable or otherwise is the number of hotels, villas and apartments which can be built and sold next to the course and the T zones are a major impediment here. Have I got it wrong?

[Madgolfer]

The points made by mambo are very valid, but in virtualy every developed (loose term) Country where there is golf development, a decent return on investment is acheived.

Heat, cold, rain etc...... wheres your spirit of adventure Mambo ?

Climate change is certainly a major point being discussed within "golfing" circles at the moment and how it is extending the playable days/hours in many regions. Foreign investors are very aware of the climate situation in Croatia and there appears little doubt as to its viability, IT WOULD WORK. Golf course developers are fully prepared to invest in all aspects of a course including attracting members, tourists and such like, but would expect the coopperation of the local and national Govt at least to some degree.

I am sure like me, you have played in many conditions. I do take your point seriously though about climate attracting or putting off tourist golf. My point was that without the Croatian authorities developing a clear long term strategy in an attempt to attract golfers, its a non starter with most people we have spoken with.

[mambo]

The reason why Portugal, southern Spain and Turkey are successful in golf is not because of a good summer season.
The only reason why they are successful is that they have the perfect golf weather in the autumn, winter and spring.
All the golf courses in Northern Europe are, during the winter, on 'winter' greens, which I don't find very interesting playing, but most of all the weather is usually bad (rain, wind, snow, cold) which keeps most of the golfers at home. Only the die-hards go out on those kind of days, but you can really count them on the fingers of one hand (as we say it in Holland).
Also the Teaching pro's have not a lot to do, so these guys thought of a good idea and found it in Portugal, Spain and now Turkey.
With a temperature hovering around 15 to 20 degrees Celsius, little precipitation and little wind the climate is perfect for golf. Many teaching pro's therefore move to the south and offer golf clinics of one week (travel, hotel and unlimited golf included) for very low prices. The hotels are mostly empty in the winter season so they are willing to lower prices to accommodate golfers.

The amount of golfers flying from Germany, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, England etc to Portugal, southern Spain etc for a weekend or just a mid-week of golf is enormous and it is a very nice extra income for the courses.
In addition these regions are home to many retired ex-pats, who have money to spend and time to burn, so they play golf.

Croatia has nothing of this.

The weather in the autumn, winter and spring is usually horrible. Already in the beginning of September temperatures drop below zero during the evenings (in istria) and thus there is no reason for golfers to move from Holland, Belgium, Germany etc during these periods. They fly to Portugal, Spain and Turkey to get AWAY from the bad weather they have at home, NOT to go to a place where it is even worse.

In addition we don't have a large number of ex-pats living here, so the golfing base (for a club) is not here and will never be here.
Lastly, but this can be changed, Istria is near impossible to get to in a short period of time. You either have to fly to Venice and hop in a car for 3 hours or fly into Zagreb and drive for roughly 2,5 hours. And when you get here you will find that everything is closed, not a shop or restaurant is open during that period of the year.

And just in case........in Portugal, Spain and Turkey you won't find a lot of players on the course during the summer months, it is simply too hot to play. Expecting that all of a sudden they will play here in Croatia during the summer is just kidding yourself. A few will play in the early morning hours or 9 holes in the evening. But when you need roughly 200 green fee players per day to cover your cost the mathematics are easy, it can't be done.

So these are just the perspectives from the golfers point of view. We have not even begone talking about the cost of upkeep (water, green keepers, machinery, chemicals etc)

[mambo]

And madgolfer,

I know enough 'golf projects' that have failed miserably because of too optimistic projections about the number of people that would come to play.

I have said it before and will say it again. The only way Istria will ever be able to afford a golf course is when this course is build with a hotel and the hotel is willing to cover the FULL cost of the golf course. In other words, the yearly cost are fully paid for by the hotel, all income from green fee players, members, clinics etc is extra, but not required.

In the end it will become a mathematical equasion, where the hotel has to figure out if the extra profit, because of the presence of the golf course, is bigger than the cost of the course. If the cost are higher the conclusion must be that it economically not viable to run a golf course in Istria.
Croatia will not be the first country in the world where they find out that golf courses are not a very good investment. I have seen many places and countries where this was the case, there is no need for Croatia to invent the wheel.

[mambo]

Carol,

Houses and hotels near golf courses are only attractive if you can actually use the golf course. Otherwise you have to find some real dumb tourists, who know nothing about the climate, tell them it is perfect, sell the house or apartment and run away. Problem is you can only do that once and after that everyone will know that golf isn't viable in the winter, so you won't sell anymore houses or apartments.
It is a short term view, but for long term development you have to be honest to your buyers. If someone asks if he can play golf around Christmas you have to be honest and say: 'yes you can, but be aware the temperature will be around zero, expect lots of rain and we have the occasional Bura.'

Hotels, houses and apartments can only survive, long term that is, when golfers can play golf. If I go to a place for the first time and find out I have been 'had' I will never return there again and in fact, I will make sure everyone knows about it too. A simple letter to a golf magazine can do miracles and the news travels extremely fast.

Teaching pro's need good weather for their clinics and mid-week programs, which is almost guaranteed in Spain, Portugal and Turkey, but absolutely not in Croatia. Therefore, chances that teaching pro's will set up shop during the winter are slim and without them the golfers won't show up either (or is lesser numbers).

To understand the chances of a golf course you have to understand the psychic of a golfer.

95 % of all golfers are good weather players, in other words they want dry, not too windy, not too warm and not too cold temperatures (15 to 22 degrees is the perfect range for a round of golf).
As soon as it starts to rain, the wind picks up or it becomes too cold or too warm you will see golf courses turn empty.
For most people in Northern Europe this means golf is a seasonal sport (max 6 months). Golf however is also a sport of muscle memory and if you don't play you loose your muscle memory, which means that by the time the new season starts you are back to square one. The level that you had right before the winter is gone, handicap 18 all of a sudden becomes handicap 27 or 28 again. And by the time they reach that 18 again the season is over again. This is the cycle that most golfers have.

And this is where Spain, Portugal and Turkey come in (also Marocco in the future). These places have perfect weather for golf, but best of all, it is perfect to cover that empty winter season. You can hop on Ryanair or Easyjet on a Friday for almost nothing, get a bus to a hotel and play golf on Saturday and Sunday and be back in the office on Monday afternoon.
And instead of practicing in the garage you book yourself a midweek clinic with your own teaching pro (from your home course in England, Holland etc) in December or January, so you swing stays perfect, your chipping and putting skills are improved and you can hold on to that handicap 10, 18, 26 or whatever during the winter. So when season starts in April you are still at your old level, ready to improve during the summer instead of trying to catch up.

This is what motivates most of the golfers to travel to Spain, Portugal, Turkey etc.

Running around in the rain at temperatures around zero in a bura is not very appealing and when you then also need about a full day to get to your location the choice is easy......forget Croatia, let's go to Spain, Portugal or Turkey.
If you want to bring the family to these countries they won't complain, they can lie in the sun, do some shopping etc, but stuffing them away in a hotel with all the shops closed, no restaurants open and no place to sit in the sun won't be very attractive.

If you understand this behavior of golfers you will also understand why it won't matter how many hotels you build here. The hotel is not the goal, GOLF is the goal of the trip and if all points to Spain, Portugal or Turkey the choice becomes real simple.

[Carol]

blazing hot 3 month summers followed by icy conditions for the next 9 months? Istria is 5 hours north of here up the coast but surely it can't be that different???
This is Vis taken in April:
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This is Kastela taken in January on a typical day
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whereas this is the same place on one of the nice days in January.:-
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Are you really saying that Istria is so different?

[polako]

Carol- great pics. Which part of Kastel is that??? Vis looks lovely.

[Carol]

its Kastel Stari.

[Carol]

I'll tell my husband that you like his photos!!

[Carol]

mambo - how many locals in the caribbean play golf? How about in turkey?