Golf

[polako]

They are great. Kastel looks quite busy in Jan from the photos- ie. there are cars indicating people ...... I see that I am going to have to go to Dalmatia to check it out........but I am still an Istrian bird!

[Carol]

its a living village, rather than a summer season only place.
I've always wanted to explore Istria properly, especially Pula.

If you come down to Kastela make sure you have time to stop by and say hello!

[polako]

Will do Carol. ....... I can't return the offer as I am not in Istria all the time.....sorry. Sorry I have sidetracked the thread.

[mambo]

Carol,

On Curacao we have the Curacao Golf & Squash Club, which is the oldest club on the island (80 years) and currently it has around 700 members (used to be around 900 some years ago).

The other club, Blue Bay Golf Club (at the Blue Bay resort, Pete Dye design) there are around 25 members !

At the CGSC we have 10 holes and the amount of green fee players is minimal. Most tourists simply find it too warm to play in our temperatures (every day of the year 33 degrees with 15 to 25 kts wind).
Blue Bay had hopes to attract golfing tourists from the many cruise ships that pass by, but also here, it is simply too warm for the tourists to play. It does not need any explanation that Blue Bay has massive financial problems and the state of the course proves this fact, it is horrible. The pictures on the internet look fine, but in reality the course does not rise above the level of a municipal course in the USA.

The CGSC simply pays the cost of the course via the membership dues and when we need more money at the end of the year the members are asked to chip in more money.
Having been a member of the board of the CGSC I know the ins and outs of a Golf Club, the financial management, the cost of the maintenance, the problems with maintenance in a climate like the Caribbean and the difficulties of attracting new members.


And Istria ?

It may be only 500 km, but our climate is indeed completely different. In fact we have already 10 degrees difference between Porec and Pazin. The center of Istria has a completely different climate than the coast and not too many people know about this.
Due to our ice business I have been following the temperatures and precipitation closely over the years and the trend is more rain and much lower temperatures. In 2007 we went below zero on 4th of September, registered -4 degrees at night !

But regardless of the temporary climate, the general climate is such that it will never become a golf destination like Southern Spain, Portugal and Turkey. The reasons I have given in earlier posts and they won't change.

Split would already be a better destination (I think I have also stated that a few years ago). The temperatures in the winter are much better, easy to reach by air, but also no large ex-pat community which will pay for the maintenance of the course when the green fee players are not there.

But Istria is not a golf destination and will never ever become one. Any golf course in Istria will be nice, but economically not viable, it will never break even or turn into a profit (unless the developer can sell it to an unsuspecting client).

[mambo]

Carol,

Forgot about the Turkey question.

Golf in Turkey is mostly in the neighborhood of Antalya and if you check the climate there you will find out that the temperatures are between 15 and 20 degrees during the winter. In the summer they also hit 35 degrees.

Spain and Portugal are identical, also 15 to 20 degrees.

Istria ?

During the day between 0 and 5, sometimes 10, but at night -20 is not uncommon in the center of Istria.

If you ask me, I rather play golf at temperatures around 15 - 20 Celsius.

[Madgolfer]

Hi Mambo,

Golf courses can be viable WITHOUT foreign tourism, just with a domestic base of members.

OK that does not exist in Croatia at the moment because the Govt. is not prepared to educate the public. How many "non sporty" Croatian do you know ?

OK it does take time to do.

OK the weather can be varied in Croatia and we would all like to play on perfect courses and in perfect conditions, but if that was the main concern of golfers in general the UK would be barren !

You only need to look at how successful some Scandinavian Countries and other Eastern European Countries (Poland and Hungary in particular) have been at developing their domestic market within a very short period of time and from a standing start. These Countries now have a good membership base at most courses and are reporting profits after just 4 years of opp oration.

I would turn your argument around, if these Countries can do it very successfully and without the advantage of having the coastline and weather that Croatia has............

Why so negative ? Is it with-drawl symptoms having not played so long ?

[Madgolfer]

Having now got off the "development for profit" angle, the development of golf "for the pleasure" is surely one very good reason to get it going in Croatia.

In other Countries where they have adopted this attitude and approach from the start, (albeit with Govt backing in part on municipal courses) the results have been outstanding in supplying many social advantages.

Not all investors are members of the "get rich quick" club.

[mambo]

Madgolfer,

I understand your thoughts, but unfortunately the Croatian situation is slightly different.

You state that a golf course can be viable with only local members and I will go even further than that. The golf course and golf club have to be totally self sufficient if it ever is going to become a viable option here in Istria. A golf course cannot be maintained based on green fee players alone.
From my experience in both Holland and Curacao I know that for an 18 hole golf course you are looking at 1000 - 1200 paying members and they will have to pay the annual fee as well as the entree fee.
With roughly 35 playing locals here in Istria we have a very long way to go before we will ever get to 1000 members.

In Istria the majority of the local people are the type of people who are not interested in any kind of sport whatsoever. We have a few youngsters who play handball and basketball, and perhaps a bit of football.
Add the yearly cost of Golf (in most countries around 2000 euro per year) plus the one time entree fee of 2500 to 5000 euro and you don't need to have a glass ball to predict that you will not find a lot of locals willing and able to join.

Perhaps if the course would be around Zagreb you will have more chance, but here in Istria there will never be a base of 1000 members, not now, not in 10 years and not in 30 years. We only have around 200,000 inhabitants in all of Istria and 95 % just earns enough to survive the winter.

You may view this position as negative, I simply call it realistic. Why ?

Because I have seen this situation in many countries, even on Curacao the base is not large enough to support 2 golf courses/clubs. We have roughly 125,000 inhabitants on the island and there are a lot who have more than enough money to become a member, so money is not the issue. It is the simple fact that golf on Curacao is not as popular as in Britain or in the US. There are a lot of people who simply make the calculation and decide to pay a green fee a few times a year instead of becoming a member.

Sure, if the government wants to pick up the tab, by all means, let's do it, but don't forget that the whole budget for Zupanj of Istria is 250 million Kuna. From this they will have to do the roads, sewer systems, gas pipelines, tourist development etc.
35 million euro per years is not a lot if you ask me.

And if they have to decide between 'hoping to develop local interest in golf' or upgrading the infrastructure I think I know what the decision will be.

In other words, all investment in golf courses has to come from the private sector and for them the result below the line is most important.

[Madgolfer]

Mambo,

After the recent fiasco at Zagreb GCC with asset stripping and tax avoidance which did unfortunately hit the international press, the chances of getting another decent project on the go up here in the near future seem pretty remote.

When I met with minister (********) earlier this year about this very subject, his jaw almost hit the floor when I tried to explain the level of investment in education they would need to apply. Your right, there is limited money available and it certainly aint gonna be spent on teaching Croatian people about golf.

I havnt been to Dolina Kardinala in a while, do you know if that one is still up and running ? If so Ill book us a tee time and we can carry this conversation on during the round (lol).

[felicia]

What about Brijuni?? Sat next to manager of golf course there on Pula flight and he was just on his way back from St. Andrews who had contributed a considerable investment in the course. So can't be that bad!! Don't play golf myself so am not in position to comment but it is a fantastic place. It is however a 'natural course' (i.e. no irrigation) and will remain so - therefore a bit brown in a drought!

[mambo]

Have not played Brioni, but from what I know it is the last course with 'brownies' (sand greens). I learned to put on brownies when we had them on Curacao, quite interesting putting I must say.
Now we have changed to grass greens, since they did not allow the mixture of sand and oil anymore !

Madgolfer,

If I would have time I would show up, but unfortunately it is our high season as well and we are pretty busy, but autumn could be an idea. Have to go out and practice though, haven't touched a club for a very long time now.