Bargain development for sale Mali Losinj

[mambo]

Just one thing though.

If you bought the apartment from a developer with the idea to make a quick buck on it and you then paid 2000 or 2200 euro I can fully understand that you will be losing money if you sell it for less.

But buying it from a developer is not the same as building it yourself. I hope you will agree to that one.

[Carol]

Mambo I don't know how to buy land, build on it (basic build not luxury) and sell for 500 €/m2 LEGALLY but you say it can be done, so could you explain how?

€x Purchase Price of Land
€x RETT on Purchase
€x Brokerage fees on purchase
€x Legal fees on purchase
€x Architects fees
€x Planning application fees
€x Bringing water
€x Bringing electricty
€x Building materials
€x Finishing materials (basic)
€x Labour costs
€x Project Management
€x Accounting fees
€x Communal taxes
€x Etaziranje cost (incl Geometer)
€x PDV due on sale price
€x Bank interest charges on loan / loss of bank interest on savings
€500 TOTAL

That land at 60.. is it zoned or unzoned? If you are allowed to legally build on it and the seller only wants 60, well it is cheap relative to most other zoned coastal plots. Do you have a link to it?

[mambo]

Carol

There are also other ways of buying land.

Ever heard of simply going to a village, talking to the people there and finding out what is for sale ? Why do you always try to make people believe that you can only buy via real estate agents ? Is that because you have an interest in that ?

One advise though, don't go if you are a foreigner, the price will be raised immediately. I dropped off my girlfriend (who is Croatian) at the beginning of the village and I simply went for a walk with the dog somewhere else. Less than 2 hours later she had found 2 plots, one for 30 euro and the other for 60 euro (and it was building land).
60 euro may sound extremely cheap to you, but in fact it is still too much. When you realize you can still buy land, in the Caribbean, close to the sea, for 25 to 30 euro, most plots at least 1000 m2, 60 euro is still a lot of money.
It is just that we keep telling each other that it is so cheap that some people actually start believing it, it is just BS.
The village btw was Vinisce, exactly 15 minutes from Trogir and less than 30 min from the airport of Split. Since the low cost airlines fly in and out of Split on a regular basis the idea was to offer a one week holiday in a house with a swimming pool, for 6 persons, including a car, air travel for 1250 to 1500 euro. Good luck trying to find that here in Istria.

And I know that you can spend fortunes on architects, building materials, project managers etc, but it is not necessary. However, if you keep telling yourself that it is necessary you can spend that money without a problem.

Honest to g*o*d I have no idea what your idea is of basic, but I am getting the idea that basic means full luxury and obviously that is not the case.
You can have a shower complete with pvc tub, glass doors etc, but have you ever heard of simple tiles, a drain and a concrete ridge to keep the water inside ? A shower like that will set you back 100 or 200 euro.
Doors ? Sure, you can go for the most expensive ones, but why should you ?
Windows ? Same idea. You can buy the epensive PVC ones, but you can also build them yourself, ever heard of wood ?
Water outlets ? Of course I can install Grohe, but there are cheaper items on the market available.
Installing a water pipe ?
Installing electricity ? How many Kw do you really need in your holiday house ?
A swimming pool ? I can give you the address of a company in Italy, I bought a 6 x 10 mtr pool (lining, filters, pump, lights etc) for less than 5000 euro (ex pdv)
And please explain me why I have to put expensive insulation material in a house when it is only used during the summer time ?

I am almost getting the idea that I need to explain how to build houses cheap and trust me, 500 euro is even too much if you really want to go cheap. It is one of the things I learned in the Caribbean.
However, here in this country people start building and only when they are finished they figure out that they wasted money on things they don't need.

Again, I am not talking about handing everything off to a developer or building company and letting them go their own way. That would be the easiest way to lose all your money.

[Carol]

my idea of basic...
no kitchen cupboards, sink or means of cooking
one showerroom consisting of cheap white WC, sink and shower tray (no curtain or screen) and a small boiler to provide water for the shower (25l)
cheapest possible doors
metal framed windows - no shutters
plastered walls with one coat of the white paint which rubs of like dust if you accidentally touch the walls
one single light bulb in the centre of the ceiling to light each room (one per room!)
one electric point in each room

Does it sound like i am describing something I may have seen 100 times?? (Because i am). The price of this sort of build (material and labour) is about 300 - 500 €/m2 BUT there is still so many things to add as my list shows. And to be honest I don't believe that the land price was for post GUP.

Yes people can find land many ways and in my list you can pay 0 for brokerage fees but I still don't think that this 2% saving on the purchase price will mean that you can bring the whole project in for 500.

PS Wood costs a lot in Croatia - do you see many forests?

[darcy]

Mambo,

A salt water pool for 5000 EUR that is not in an ground pool with pebbles installed (water included) is a real waste of money. (I hate linings)

Regarding everything else, I completely agree with you, even I have never been on the Caribbean’s. Any advice for a retiree?

[Madgolfer]

IMO Cheap = Problems.

[darcy]

Concrete salt water with sand filter = no problemos. Asta la vista, babe.

[mambo]

Darcy,

I did not buy a salt water pool, I bought a normal pool, with lining, 7 mm instead of 5 mm. The reason I was able to get it cheap (40 % discount) was because I bought it for export, did not ask for warranty (not usefull anyway if you live abroad) and came and picked it up myself (instead of delivery.
And it was certainly not a pool which you buy in Ikea or some Brico store. The whole thing was build into the ground, you only have to know how to build it and then there will be no problem.

When I read some of the posts here I really start to wonder whether I am the only one who always looks for the bargains. Is everyone so happy at spending zillions of euro's for the fun of it ?
Of course I can always opt to put money in someone else's pocket, but why should I. Some of you sound like Americans who also believe that only the most expensive items are really quality. I have news for you, most of the things produced have mark ups of 300 to 400 % by the time you buy it. Does the quality improve all of a sudden ?

@ Carol and Madgolfer,

Cheap does not mean trouble at all. Cheap means a lower quality, but that is not the same as problematic. What do you think, everyone wants to spend 1000 euro/m2 on things they don't need ?

And metal shutter windows ? Not really, I have had them before, will never use them again, same goes for PVC units in this climate, it will all break apart.
Perhaps wood is expensive if you buy it at Bauhaus or Brico, but why go there if you can also get it right at the place where the tree trunks get in ? If you go there, pick it up yourself, you will save a ton of money, trust me, I have done it many times.

Like I said, the shower is nothing special, but why does it need to be special ? If you build something for tourists, for use in the summertime, the one thing you are looking for is durability, it should not break down. A shower curtain will set you back 15 to 20 euro and will do the job just fine, no need to buy expensive glass doors or worse.........sliding doors.

Doors in the apartment ? If you pass by Bauhaus or Metro you will regularly find doors for nice prices, slightly damaged, need some paint, but they are fine.

Same goes for the tiles. You can of course go to Pevec and find yourself the most expensive tiles you can get, but why not go there (or any other shop) and ask for the left overs ? You can even go to large building projects, which are about to be finished, and talk to the guys who put in all the tiles.
Sometimes large customers (developers etc) ordered a large amount and in the end they have tiles left. They cannot use them anywhere else, don't want to drive them home, so they sell them, on the spot.
Same goes for the left overs you will find at the retailer. They don't want to or cannot order more of these tiles, so he is stuck with a certain amount of tiles. You will be amazed to see what kind of discounts you can get on expensive tiles. It may mean that you have different tiles in different rooms, but .............who cares ?

If you build a house like this you will end up with prices even far below the 500 euro/m2 level.


And for the other cost.

Carol,

An apartment is always build in a block of apartments, you hardly see just one apartment. A normal way of building is 4 or 6 apartments under one roof. This means that most of the prices you describe should be divided by 4, not just for the one apartment.

Also, why is it so hard for you to believe that people still sell land for normal prices ? Apparently you have set your mind to it that land cannot be found for less than 100 euro/m2.
I don't understand why you think that you (or real estate agents) are the only person on this planet who is able to find building plots ?
Croatia is rather large and many families still have a lot of land, with which they do absolutely nothing. It is just a matter of finding it and basically I do no different than what a real estate agent does. But instead of handing them the profit I deal with the owners directly and thus save me a ton of money.
I bought my land on Curacao in exactly the same way and in Holland it is now becoming more and more poplular to sell your house/land without going through a real estate agent. People put their house for sale on the internet, in the news paper and sell it without a hassle. And also here in Istria I know many peope who have bought land or houses without passing through a real estate agent. Perhaps it is because of the rediculous fees they are charging.

[Carol]

Price of land...
lets put it this way. Mr A owns some land. His neighbours sold their building plots for 200 €/m2 or even 350€/m2. Three years ago another neighbour sold his pre-GUP for 60. However, because you are Mr A and because Mambo's girlfriend is standing in front of you, you decide not to sell for 200 to someone else. Instead you'll give up the land for 60.

Let's be real: you may be Dutch and you may love a bargain. You probably are willign to haggle all day long, but do people like your girlfriend so much that they will sell land to her for a fraction of the price???

On the subject of apartments, this whole discussion started because you accused Rijekafan of lying. You implied that the only cost he had had was for materials and (maybe) labour. But now you say you are building apartments, so do't you think it might be nice to do an etaziranje? And anyway when you build apartments you have to put in 4 lots of tiles, you can't give everyone 1/4 of the tiles needed for one apartment.
Basically Mambo you have never developed here in Croatia or traded real estate but you don't hesitate to tell those of us who do that you know better and we must be cheats if we disagree. I asked you to fill in the numbers and yuou didn't, just gave me a long lecture on how to find cheap finishing materials. What about all the other things??

[gmh]

As a pretty decent diy guy, I can understand that you can build cheaper by doing a lot yourself and sourcing secondhand materials. For this you need a lot of time, tools and skill. 3 things your average person doesn't have.
To suggest you can make windows from wood you get at a sawmill is ridiculous though !
It won't be properly dried or finished to a usuable quality. You'd need your own planer and thickneser machines and table saw, which cost a lot. You'd also need pretty good joinery skills to put the frames together. If you think that joining them with screws and brackets is going to last, you're wrong.
You can however drive around Zagreb right now and pick up all the wooden doors and windows you like for free. You then need to make your door ways and window frames to fit your doors and windows. Again, not everyone has the time or van to go collecting building materials themselves and I doubt you'll find too many builders willing to install old materials.
Concrete kitchens can be quite nice, if again you have the tools and know how. Most people don't. Besides, you can buy a small kitchen for 3000 kuna anyway.

[darcy]

Mambo,

You are my man. My best friend says "whatever you can find for 10 bucks, you can find for 9. Whatever you can find for 9, you can buy for 8." My wife is even worse, when she bargains I run away. (She is considering me extremely generous.) When my father-in-law bargains, my wife runs away. I hope you can get the picture.

[darcy]

Regarding the margins for devlopers, if anybody is interested, their margin in Croatia is around 35% and up (after all expenses), I wrote it before, but Ann deleted my message. I do not know why.

[darcy]

... and do not believe the real estate agents, they are just selling the lifestyle. Every property is lots of work.

Try to sell it and the buyers are really terrible. I am experiencing that right now.

[Madgolfer]

I can just imagine Mambo driving around the villages and stores with his horse and cart (lol)

Anyone else remeber "Steptoe ans Son" Ding a ling a ling.........

[Madgolfer]

On a more serious note Mambo, obviously the quality issue is not a problem if you are building or renovating a place for yourself and if you are prepared to accept "seconds".

Try getting a paying client to accept this.