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Post by darcy on Nov 4, 2008 11:22:38 GMT 1
If you are an agent, madgolfer, I can understand you. If you like to work, it is a pleasure. If you are a project manager, you just need the tradesmen.
In any case it is your money - do what you want and let people do with theirs as they want.
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Post by Anna on Nov 4, 2008 13:42:21 GMT 1
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Post by mambo on Nov 4, 2008 15:19:11 GMT 1
Carol, Just so that you understand. I simply stated that 2200 euro/m2 is not a bargain and I asked Rijekafan why he simply does not write 'apartment for sale, 45 m2, 100,000 euro'. The reason being obvious, 2200 euro/m2 is not really cheap and it is definitely not a bargain. That was all I wrote, did not say he was lying etc, Rijekafan came up with that one him/herself and in the end also stated that he/she wanted to make a profit. So please explain me which part of my post was a lie. Then I stated that you can build a house, apartments etc for 500 euro if you want to go cheap, 750 or 1000 euro/m2 if you want to go a bit more expensive. So far you have only focussed on the 500 euro and stated that you cannot have super quality for that price. Where did I ever state that you will have super quality for 500 euro ? Please point it out to me. I only stated that it was and is possible to build for that price, but you basically exploded and told me that it was completely impossible. I never said that everyone has to go this path, if you are happy with paying much higher prices....by all means do so. If someone does not want to go around and look for a better deal, it is not my problem. When we build up this factory I did not go to an architect, I did not hand him a ton of money and said 'have fun'. There was a simple reason for that............we did not have the luxury of burning money and handing it over to the sharks. Now, if you cannot stand the fact that people are still willing to sell their land for a normal price......is that your problem or is that my problem. You make it sound like you are the only person in Croatia who can get the lowest prices and trust me.........you are not. Not all land in Croatia nowadays cost 200 euro/m2, not even 100 euro/m2. It is just a matter of searching and you will find it. Not all Croatians have sold land to foreigners like you want to make us believe. Last year I was offered a parcel of land, on the island of Korcula, roughly 200 meter from the sea for 100 euro/m2 and the guy who offered it to me was a real estate agent. So please cut the BS and stop acting like the real estate agent who is afraid I am ruining her business. Judging your reaction I get the idea that you will tell all your clients that they should never go at it alone, that it is much better to have you do the job and of course...........you work for free. Again, I did not call anyone a lier, I simply stated that 500 euro/m2 is not a rediculous price, but you can also build for much more if you want. And if this is not true................please explain how this developer from Zagreb is offering apartments in Baderna for prices between 1100 and 1700 euro/m2, which includes a common pool for each apartment building. Or are these people also lying ?
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Post by Carol on Nov 4, 2008 15:33:49 GMT 1
Hope you are not questioning my business ethics mambo? It seems you are....
for your information I do not manage building projects. I advise what i can (for free as it happens) and then i pass the clients onto a professional whom I've vetted first using my own time with no expectation of being financially rewarded ever for it. I don't get any kind of kickback whatsoever from the project manager and I advise the clients to get a written contract stating exactly what services they will use what it will entail what the deliverables will be and how the payments will be staged. If they take my advice or don't take it, it really makes no difference to me. the only thing I care about is that the project amnager does a good job becasue I recommended him and I worked hard to build a relationship with the client which i don't want to throw away on a bad recommendation.
I do charge for some services but I say so and agree all in writing explicity up front. It is normal and the professional way to behave. Probably just the same way you sell ice!!
I can't be bothered though with people who coem to me with a grudge against agents and think that we will cheat them. Mostly these people are the ones who would cheat you (because avoiding payment is their obsession)
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Post by mambo on Nov 4, 2008 16:24:16 GMT 1
Carol,
Who says I am questioning your business ethics.
Now you start talking about kick backs from project developers of which I have not spoken at all.
And I don't have a grudge against agents, but I have an opinion about them, especially the bad ones (and there are a lot of them). But I think you will agree that there is a difference if you buy via an agent or if you buy directly from the seller. The difference is not only the commission, but many times also the price and the conditions. And I think you will agree that this is true.
Perhaps some people think the risk is too high if you deal directly with the seller, but I have my doubts about that. Even when you buy via an agent you have no guarantees, you cannot hold them responsible (good luck with this court system) so basically you are on your own.
Again, I simply stated that you can build for 500 euro/m2 without a problem, that was all. For some reason it seems you want to keep telling people that this is impossible, like you also want people to believe (or so it seems) that you cannot find building plots for less than 100 euro/m2 (after all 60 euro/m2 is already way too low for you).
Perhaps I have news for you. With all the changes in the staying and working permits as well as categorization and permits to rent out houses the government is basically destroying the housing market. Many foreigners in Istria did not get a working permit nor a permit to rent their houses and a lot of them are now planning to leave, they are giving up. There are plans to write an open letter to the government and bring the whole policy of Croatia to the attention of the EU. I hope you will agree with me that the prices of houses will drop like a rock when foreigners cannot get the permissions they need. Foreign investment would come to a complete halt and we all know that locals will not be able to pay these prices.
So, in my humble opinion, the prices of the building plots will also drop like a rock. The Croatians may think it is worth much more, the real estate agents may think that as well, but what good does it do you when you cannot sell it to people with money ?
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Post by upthevilla on Nov 4, 2008 16:57:56 GMT 1
( And if this is not true................please explain how this developer from Zagreb is offering apartments in Baderna for prices between 1100 and 1700 euro/m2, which includes a common pool for each apartment building. Or are these people also lying ? )
no they are not lying but you be ........ to buy one
Just for the record , these apartments were built over the last few years and completed early last year. They were originally being sold at a higher price and the majority of them sold at the higher price, i cant remember exactly as i did`nt sell any, but think anything decent was around the 1,700 - 1,900 euro m2 mark.
The investor is now left with the rubbish ones (in my opinion ) ie the ones at the back or badly designed, And he is struggling to off load them. The investor is now building near Pula and he he asking a minimum of 3,000 - 3,500 euro m2 and thats without sea views , He claims them to be luxurious . Anyway, i left the very pretty presentation pack where i found it as the price is way to much. The Baderna estate is an eye sore to be honest, unless you like over looking a petrol station and a busy main road and being 7 miles from the sea, and no local shops or cafe`s unless you include the greasy spoon next to the pertol station , which do actually sell nice food. I took several clients there when it was off plan and in the build progress and hence to say that the mayority of them did`nt even get out of the car but enjoyed the coffee yes there is a communial pool, but my dogs watering bowl is bigger.
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Post by mambo on Nov 4, 2008 19:53:59 GMT 1
upthevilla, I visited the apartments several times and also in during the construction phase. My initial reaction was the same, who would want to live there ? But, when you realize that the old street near Baderna hardly sees any traffic (and won't see it anymore either) it is not such a bad location. To put it differently...............what is the difference between these apartments and the ones just in front of the fire station in Porec............indeed, the ones where the other apartment building was constructed just in front ! Baderna is not too far away from the sea, within 15 minutes you can be on the beach and I know many other properties in and around Porec that are in much worse neighborhoods. Take into account that you also have a swimming pool and I don't think it is that bad. Why don't I want to buy here ? Very simple. The Croatian economy is too fragile and to be honest............I don't want to own anything in Istria, I prefer the South. It is that I have to be here for work, otherwise I would have moved South already and since I spend more and more time in Italy and Spain the question becomes again: 'why buy here ?' The prices of the apartments have not changed at all, they have been like this from the beginning. There are some smaller apartments and there are larger ones, which are obviously more expensive. But in all, if a developer can sell this for 1100 euro you can count on it he is not making a loss and like I said, it is only because everybody is trying to tell you that you will spend at least 1000 euro/m2 that people start believing it. Just a question.............how many people actually made the calculation themselves ? I can guarantee you that they will be amazed. And just to put things into perspective, in the Caribbean 500 euro/m2 is a fortune and over there we still need to import each and every single piece of material. Hourly fees are almost identical, so if we can build it over there....................why are people so desperately trying to tell me that it cannot be done here ? I think it is just a matter of mind set and finding the right people. Handing your money to someone else can also be done later.
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Post by darcy on Nov 4, 2008 22:11:10 GMT 1
Anna, you are my Ann. And you are deleting my posts, what you admitted. What do you want? Do you want to answer my question - what are you fishing in this pond? Back to the topic, my estimate is the margin for developers in Croatia is around 35% and higher. The developers do not buy the land for 200, 300 or 400 EUR. They buy it for 20, 30 or 40 EUR psqm. The developers do not pay their workers 25 or 30 EUR per hour. They pay them 2.5 or 3 EUR ph (if the workers are lucky to get any salary at all). As a conclusion, the building industry in Croatia is not far away from dealing drugs, but I am very open to other opinions.
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Post by Madgolfer on Nov 5, 2008 11:01:40 GMT 1
Darcy, re your post; "If you are an agent, madgolfer, I can understand you. If you like to work, it is a pleasure. If you are a project manager, you just need the tradesmen. In any case it is your money - do what you want and let people do with theirs as they want."
I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying.
I am a real estate agent, I am also a project manager and an apprenticed electrician by trade. Does that help?
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Post by Madgolfer on Nov 5, 2008 11:48:02 GMT 1
Mambo, re your posts; "Again, I am not talking about handing everything off to a developer or building company and letting them go their own way. That would be the easiest way to lose all your money."
and; "Judging your reaction I get the idea that you will tell all your clients that they should never go at it alone, that it is much better to have you do the job and of course...........you work for free."
and; " When we build up this factory I did not go to an architect, I did not hand him a ton of money and said 'have fun'. There was a simple reason for that............we did not have the luxury of burning money and handing it over to the sharks."
and so on and on and on and on............
Reading through your various posts, you sound as though you are quite a capable guy and able to undertake a lot of the work yourself as you have the skill and time available. If that is the case, then yes of course you can keep some costs down.
However, you are trying to make the whole process sound very simplistic, which it certainly is not. It is also certainly NOT something that could be achieved by most of the people buying property in Croatia, due to their lack of experience, skill and time.
From my experience, I can state that many of the worst "disaster" stories are to be found where clients have tried to undertake work on a property development themselves.
I also think your constant references to how much "cheaper" things are to buy and to build in the Caribbean are irrelevant to the situation in Croatia. People know that they can build a villa in other parts of the world for the price of a nice family car, but this has no relevance to the current situation in eastern Europe. Perhaps using some references or cost comparisons closer to home would be a better example.
Overall it seems to me that the general "flavor" of your posts implies that agents, developers and project managers are overcharging for their services and that the service received is not good?
Finally, may I ask if you have had a bad experience yourself on a project in the past with an agent, developer or project manager? If so, this might help me to put your comments into perspective.
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Post by mambo on Nov 5, 2008 16:17:20 GMT 1
Madgolfer, In my opinion there are two ways of buying a house or a property. The first is that you build it yourself and the other is that you buy it 'off the shelf'. In the first option you will have to find the land yourself, basically arrange everything yourself. Some people like doing this, others don't. Once you have decided to arrange everything yourself you then have to decide what you can accomplish with your budget. Obviously searching for bargains will lower the price even more, but you can also find a construction company and have them build it for you. Even finding a construction company does not mean that you will all of a sudden pay the prices when you buy something off the shelf. Bad part however is that you have to keep controlling the construction company, but there are many people here in Istria who build like this. A former neighbor, a German from Stuttgart, built a two story house with swimming pool near Baderna and although it took him a lot of time to get things done he was able to control the cost and he built his place for a very good price. It was absolutely not a case of ripping the construction company off. They simply had to hand him all the bills of the material, prove to him all was delivered. Obviously he had already calculated previously how much was needed. So the old trick of ordering more and shipping it home did not work in this case. The second option is of course the most beneficial for the developers. The buyer goes to an agent or developer and buys it off the shelf. This will save the buyer a lot of work, but he will also pay a nice price. Not only will he pay the real cost of the property, he will also pay a profit margin for the developer, for the agent, his taxes will be higher and thus the price can be up to 100 to 200 or even 300 % higher than the real building cost. I understand very well that all real estate agents prefer the second option and it is logic, in the first option they will make very little profit. So explaining to everyone how difficult it is and what a hassle it is to do everything yourself benefits their business. The only thing I am trying to explain, but that seems to offend all the agents on this forum, is that the first option is a viable option and by building the house yourself you can save a ton of money. And it is absolutely not the case that the quality is p*i*s*s poor when you build for 500 euro/m2. You simply build things differently and if the house is for the tourist season only it is sometimes even better to use different techniques. Tourists do not always behave as we would like them to behave, so building it a bit stronger (and thus less luxurious) does have its benefits. And no, I don't have any bad experience with developers, but I have many friends (in Holland, on Curacao, in Switzerland) who work in this industry (as developers, architects, construction companies, road construction etc) and thus I have a bit more insight to how they work and what is possible. I have also build my own house on Curacao (via the first route with the help and advice of friends) and thus I think I have an idea what it takes to build something from scratch. The only thing I did not have was a time line, for the simple reason that in Curacao you depend on the availability of materials and the motivation of the workers (they either show up or they don't). One other, perhaps bad, habit I have is that I always try to determine the real value of a property. With regard to that I will not be a good client for a real estate agent. When I bought my house in Holland I simply told them to keep quiet, I think I am more than able to judge what I can do with a house and where the weak points are. I also know, from experience, that the value of properties in tourist areas basically exist by virtue of the tourists. As long as the tourists show up the value will remain high, but if for some reason the tourists will stay away the value of the property drops like a rock. In Curacao some very beautiful apartments near the Coral Cliff hotel went from 150,000 USD to almost nil overnight when the Coral Cliff hotel went bankrupt. A lot of people lost a hell of a lot of money that day and it took almost 6 years before a small recovery started. The volatility of prices of properties in tourist areas is much higher than in economically well developed areas. It is also the reason why I will never pay insane prices for houses in tourist areas. Here in Istria people are trying to tell me that 2500 to 3000 euro/m2 is a realistic price....well it is not. When I can buy a house/apartment in parts of Holland, where the economy is strong, demand for houses is high (and will remain high) and I pay less than 2000 euro/m2 the conclusion is simple: the prices here are too high, they are unsustainable and unexplainable, other than simple greed. I have never bought and never will buy property for a price solely based on greed. I will always look for the real economic value, because one day (like we currently see) a crisis can ruin it all. And this will not happen (that much) if the price is realistic. As an example, look at the prices of houses in the UK and US compared to the Netherlands. In the UK and the US madness ruled for many years and what has happened ? A lot of people are in trouble. In the Netherlands prices are still at their old levels. Perhaps we are old fashioned in Holland, but at least we look at things a bit more realistic.
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Post by darcy on Nov 5, 2008 20:12:19 GMT 1
Darcy, re your post; "If you are an agent, madgolfer, I can understand you. If you like to work, it is a pleasure. If you are a project manager, you just need the tradesmen. In any case it is your money - do what you want and let people do with theirs as they want." I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying. I am a real estate agent, I am also a project manager and an apprenticed electrician by trade. Does that help? I think you are a Croat. If you are a real estate agent as well, then I can't say it in public.
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Post by darcy on Nov 5, 2008 20:40:00 GMT 1
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Post by darcy on Nov 5, 2008 20:42:00 GMT 1
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Post by Madgolfer on Nov 5, 2008 21:24:21 GMT 1
Hi Darcy,
"I think you are a Croat. If you are a real estate agent as well, then I can't say it in public."
I am British, from London, so say what you have to say, i will not be offended (I hope),
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