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Post by mickanddeb09 on Jul 3, 2011 1:30:12 GMT 1
To be in the EU or not to be in the EU, that is the question...
In so many threads this discussion comes in. I think it will be interesting to hear everyone's opinions for and against. We have personally been discussing this between ourselves for a couple of years, and now the reality of Croatia actually joining the EU is looming. So.....NO, not in favour of Croatia becoming part of the EU. Does anyone really know what the outcome and consequences of this would be? (without bringing every other EU country into it) After fighting for freedom and independence, finally Croatia has come into it's own, I for one don't want the country to give that away. The European Union is not the Promised Land. Entering the EU is so unpredictable, nobody knows what it will bring, good or bad. I guess people will base their opinions on what it will mean to them and how they think it will affect them, and that is fair enough. But seriously, we need to look at the big picture. Look forward to reading everyone's views, thoughts and opinions. 
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 3, 2011 4:39:18 GMT 1
IN.
Even with all of its faults, the grand idea of the EU is still something worth having and fighting for.
It will be very hard for Croatia to prosper outside of the Union. Croatians are in general a hard working people with the right attitude to life and work, so the basic potential is there to do well as a member of the Union.
Given the current economic climate and troubles of some weaker countries, it could be argued that is reason enough for Croatia not to join. In 2-3 years time when (hopefully) the recession is well and truly behind us and we see growth and prosperity fully return, it will be a completely different scenario.
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Post by 3lions on Jul 3, 2011 7:39:13 GMT 1
After fighting for freedom and independence, finally Croatia has come into it's own, I for one don't want the country to give that away. ....erm yeah with quite a lot of help from the international community in the first place, can't bite the hand that feeds you In 2008 Croatia got a grant for 4.5 billion euros. Case closed. |
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Post by ray51 on Jul 3, 2011 7:47:39 GMT 1
The original grand idea has changed , over a period of time .
Doesn't look all that grand nowadays ( except for the grand costs of it , the taxation and the bureaucracy . )
Who is to say that there will be any new prosperity around here ? From where I sit : looks more like a terminal decline , for years now .
So : neutral - as I don't think it matters much anymore , bottom line , whether Croatia joins or not ;
in-between the 27 member-states , you have all sorts of examples , some good , many bad .
Looking back , the ones who do well would most likely have done well with or without the EU , many of the others are only pretending to be " European " , whilst praying for handouts .
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Post by ray51 on Jul 3, 2011 9:12:56 GMT 1
After fighting for freedom and independence, finally Croatia has come into it's own, I for one don't want the country to give that away. ....erm yeah with quite a lot of help from the international community in the first place, can't bite the hand that feeds you In 2008 Croatia got a grant for 4.5 billion euros. Case closed. But that money was either recklessly printed , or was paid out of contributions from taxpayers who were never consulted ; that is how the EU works : collect maximum monies from wherever you can , and then behind closed doors , some of it get dispersed to all sorts of cases , some gets spent , a lot gets wasted and who knows what happens with the rest of it . And if/when Croatia becomes a member , eventually there'll be contributions to make to the ever increasing EU budget ; and then the Croats also will not know how such monies are spent , was much of it allocated to papirology in Bruxelles or to executive travel and fine dining and wining , or have the big talkers in power allocated new grants to Moldova , Byelarus , Albania...wherever ... One other point : most of the big names of the EU elites are dellusional and insistent that all national identities must be given up , in exchange for a EUropean one ; this starts with van Rompuy , the president , but many support this idea ( as they support supra-national taxation and what not else , that hands more power over to Bruxelles ) ; some countries with identity crises may yet go for this ; I don't think the Bavarians will want to be as uniformly European as the Rumanians might , neither will the English . Only time will tell . |
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Post by crojoe on Jul 3, 2011 9:40:44 GMT 1
After fighting for freedom and independence, finally Croatia has come into it's own, I for one don't want the country to give that away. ....erm yeah with quite a lot of help from the international community in the first place, can't bite the hand that feeds you In 2008 Croatia got a grant for 4.5 billion euros. Case closed. I saw a few places where that money went and they are still sitting there today empty or hardly used more then 1 month a year. They have nice big signs on buildings that say "sponsored by EU funding", so there's no hiding it that it was money well wasted. But EU funding is hugely wasted, and in my humble opinion a bunch of fat cat diplomats can't run (almost wrote "fun") the whole thing. A few people already tried world (or European) domination and failed. But hey, a small fry like me has no problem with open borders, shopping in cheaper tax zones and having perfect shaped cucumbers. |
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Post by ray51 on Jul 3, 2011 10:53:14 GMT 1
Don't know about cucumbers , except that I have a sweet-sour one , every once in a blue moon ;
on the other 2 points :
the open borders are not so much to do with the EU , but rather with the signatories of Schengen ( Lux. ) agreement ;
the U.K. is not one of them ;
since last week , Denmark has suspended it's long membership thereof and there a big arguments in any number of countries trying to achieve the same suspensions , first : France and Italy and Spain , then some others , like Finland ; a great pity IMHO but that's how the world re-gresses , what with all the immigration from Africa ( from all the nesvrstani countries that used to be Tito's mates ) .
Cheap shopping ? That depends ; it now comes out that all sorts of EU countries have negotiated all sorts of exclusions and cop-outs ; so , you can still buy a new or used car significantly cheaper in BeNeLux than in Slovenia ; the same car would easily be 25% more in Portugal , than here .
Same with wine , whisky , air tickets , books , press , clothes...The countries , looking after their tax-collection .
And , in the last 10 years , with the Euro , many places that used to be reasonable , now think they charge Cannes and Harrods prices : Spain , and others have gone so silly price-wise , whilst not getting any better in any other respect/s , people from here don't even want to think of going there at the very same time when people there earn less than the locals earn here ( so : who needs to be ripped-off for a handful of grilled sardines and a sip of mediocre wine , while getting skin cancer ? some of the world has moved on and at least in some places like France and Germany , value for money is actually better ) ;
ergo : more reccessionary forces coming , yet more unemployment , less hope , overvalued Euro , what's the point ?
Who knows , how this may affect Croatia yet ( which already is expensive enough ) ?
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Post by crojoe on Jul 3, 2011 11:21:04 GMT 1
Well, if each sugary state would put up their borders again it won't hurt the likes of me so much, but will add-on a few more hours of travel time. While I don't want to be greedy or hold back an honest wage to a hard working person, all this free travel, work where you like and let anyone one in policy has really destroyed the fabric that’s was ones Europe. It's destroyed culture, it's destroyed the feeling of being proud of ones nation, and lastly it has seen a lot of countries go to the dogs. This is not to say that immigration is always a bad thing, but any great mass movement of peoples into another tends to cause problems with the locals. In a way I am one of those immigrants, the difference is I don’t claim benefits, I don’t expect Croatia to change everything to suit me (other then a few basics to make life easier or for my business), I pay taxes and contribute to society and I don’t send my pay check back home.
In a way, Croatia has been blessed with its borders still intake, their requirements to have a work permit and work visa and maybe a bit nationalistic tendencies help, but I guess even that can be too much. Last year they gave out only 5000 work permits to "foreigners" (including Bosnians), so I think they have the situation way under control.
It's a raging debate in the UK for years now, and it seems to be getting hotter. People are fed up (I’m talking about people willing to work) with their jobs been taken by to many outsiders. I have UK family who got laid off and their jobs given to immigrants or the company transferred to China or India. Sadly, it’s all just too little and too late to reclaim the land.
I remember when the UK government predicted 25000 to 30000 would come to UK, but instead there are estimates of 1.5 mil. to 2.5 mil. that came and counting. They have no clue of the numbers.
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Post by 3lions on Jul 3, 2011 11:23:18 GMT 1
I agree Ray, on the point that no one consulted the taxpayers in other countries as to whether their money should have been given in the first place. If they had been consulted I presume they would have said "NON". Should any money ever be given to a developing nation? Mute points.
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Post by 3lions on Jul 3, 2011 11:25:29 GMT 1
the euro sausage or the Croatian sausage???
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Post by ray51 on Jul 3, 2011 11:36:05 GMT 1
Not sure ; sometimes I like the German BockWurst too and the Belgians make some really tasty ones ( Boerewors , usually mixed beef and pork ) , as do the French ( Merguez , which is spiced lamb ) ; am actually thinking to put a few on the grill , next , with the lovely , mid-20s C sunny weather outside .
Can't remember the Croatian sausages too well , must be because we always ate other things , in my last 10-20 years of visits .
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Post by Carol on Jul 3, 2011 11:45:13 GMT 1
IN. Because Croatia needs the money (and the rigour - being honest how many of the improvements in the laws would have appeared if it hadn't been for the EU negotiations??)
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Post by ray51 on Jul 3, 2011 13:04:28 GMT 1
But : who guarantees the money will keep on coming , before the tide is reversed ?
Which zillions of money , and from where , pray ?
What happens if the Germans and the Skandies and the Brits were to wake up ( and refuse all this utter nonsense ) ?
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skyblue
Junior Member
[M0:0]
Posts: 21
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Post by skyblue on Jul 3, 2011 16:45:49 GMT 1
IN. Because Croatia needs the money (and the rigour - being honest how many of the improvements in the laws would have appeared if it hadn't been for the EU negotiations??) IN - for the same reason about improvements in laws that Carol mentions above. Deb - I think you may have overlooked this important fact. Croatia would never have modernised their laws to a more 'western' standard were it not for the EU accession process. This is the sole reason that Croatia is 'finally coming into its own' as you say. Had we not advanced towards the EU, one could guarantee that Croatia today would be not too dissimilar to Belarus. Actually, my first preference would be for Croatia to join EFTA, of which Norway, Switzerland & Iceland are members. This way, we could enjoy free trade and freedom of movement (being part of the EEA (Euro Economic Area)), but not have to contribute to the overall EU budget. Whilst poorer EU members do receive funding, often this doesn't amount to much when you take into consideration how much you eventually have to put back into the EU budget, particularly in times of crisis. But, I know EFTA is not on the cards, so the EU is my firm second favourite option. |
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Post by happy on Jul 3, 2011 21:28:18 GMT 1
No to EU.
Keep Croatia as 'The Med as it once was'
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