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Post by mh on Mar 3, 2013 5:22:40 GMT 1
I do not agree with anything expressed in A Matosic's post. It is mostly untrue, malicious and anti-Croatian. My basic argument is - You do not like it? Leave!
Property tax is one of the best ideas any Croatian government implemented for some time. Amendments from Istria that allowed the primary place of residence AND one another property are tax free is a strong win. I hope no Croat will have to pay any tax. The tax will be policed by local communities and I am sure no foreigner will slip the net.
Foreign investors? Cmon, do not believe in it. They flocked when the days are good, we would not see any more before world markets settle. They will flock again when the conditions are right. In the meantime, they should finance local programs and Croatian communities, if they do not like it - who cares.
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Post by amatesic on Mar 3, 2013 10:10:17 GMT 1
What is it that is mostly untrue, malicious and anti-Croatian? That the culture and mentality is still influenced by a communistic past? Oh please, read up on cultural change and how long it takes for a culture to change.
I am Croatian ... and I came to live in Croatia but born outside. I love it here and I love our people and culture in general, we are an interesting people with an interesting history. I believe we are trying to sort it all out, but we are a young country, still in its infancy, which is why laws change so often and investors cannot depend on them.
You attack my post in general terms, again I ask .... what is it in what I have written that is untrue, malicious and anti-Croatian? In what way? Explain yourself, please base it on facts you know about me, or in what way is what I have written untrue. Why is it malicious? Why is it anti-Croatian? Must everything Croatians do be considered good and right otherwise my commens is viewed as anti-Croatian?
In OD terms ... there are 4 phases that every project goes through (a project of any size, applies to a small project group or a large business or country transforming itself), the phases are forming, storming, norming and performing. Croatia has just entered the storming phase.
I and another investing Croatian returnee talked to a well intentioned non Croatian investor yesterday for 3 hours regarding the problems they have had and why they are pulling out completely from Croatia. My Croatian returnee friend agreed that they too are not willing to try to go into any new business adventures here. They have given up. Do not want to continue banging their heads against brick walls. They have given over 10 years to projects in Croatia. The investor company is leaving. We all agreed we were just going to spend more time smelling the roses, enjoy the good in Croatia, travel more, and make sure that whatever we do in the future we will only do it if it is fun. No more trying to bring investors to or invest in our now home country, its time for us to stop and let the young take up the reigns. We are all the wiser and still willing to advise others how best to understand the conditions in this country, how to avoid mine fields, as in our hearts we want our country to be successful for all its inhabitants, Croatians or other Europeans.
The investment company raised money on London's stock exchange and Frankfurt stock exchange to invest in tourism in Croatia. They had one roadblock after another, and unfulfilled promise after another, etc. They were just unable to move ahead positively enough to attract investors in their stock and plans. As a company they are moving to other countries where conditions are more attractive and where there is more stability. The Croatian director is staying put, he too is a returnee, grew up in Germany and the US, but now after 5 heart attacks .... from the stress of all he has experienced, the lies, the corruption, etc. he will now just consult.
We are all in our 50's, A type personalities, that have had business and been successful outside of Croatia. We are just going to focus on things we like doing.
Another point of note. The investor said that they were willing to pay "goodwill", its a business practice in the world, but the difference elsewhere is that you get what you were promised in other countries, whereas here the money is just pocketed by local sherifs. If another party aligned group of individuals is not in on the original deal then they will create roadblocks for the others in the deal. He also mentioned what was occuring with the Dubrovnik Golf Development to another investor ... who also has raised money on external stock exchanges to invest in Croatia. They are consulting now to other investors wanting to invest in Croatia, there is still interest, but they are more wise and cautious now. Also the new investors are waiting for more EU aligned laws .... so that they can sue the Croatian government all the way to EU level courts. He said that over the next few years all they will be doing in Croatia is keeping on top of their law suits to recover as much money as possible for unfulfilled promises ... after all, they naturally have everything promised in writing and signed. So its just a period of time until they win.
They have on the invitation of the present government been to talks with various ministers, this included other 3 investor groups in the tourism industry and were asked why they were pulling out, what could be done to help them stay ... their response was ... do not make promises you cannot keep, stop changing the rules of play in particular bid processes, now that you have general regional spatial plans in place, go to the next level, get the urbanization plans done, and create conditions for us investors to then be able to get a building permit within a month ... nothing else will do any longer. They were all tired of the hassles they have had over the last 12 - 15 years trying to realize their projects and investments.
Dear mh, they have made no money, only spent hundreds of millions. Finance local programs and Croatian communities with what? Spend their last penny? Invite others to try to walk the minefields?
The Croatian returnee investor director did have part in one success story. However were the local sherifs happy? Did The Garden and its festivals help the community of Petrčane? They agreed that they had outgrown the local facility and did need to move, but did the Zadar region try to keep them in the area? No .... as the local sherifs who were not part of the growth of the Garden wanted to copy and create their own brand that they were involved with. Nevertheless the investor was happy as Šibenik went out of its way to try to help, and the festival location is now in Tisno. They are happy now in Tisno.
One more point .... I never heard the following saying until I came here ..... Ako meni crkne krava, neka susjedu crknu bar dvije, tri. Četiri. Sve! Translation: If my cows dies, let my neighbor lose at least two, three, four. All! Yes, that is still the mentality .... maybe its why Communism even had a foothold in Croatia in the first place.
Last point. I agree with the property tax too. But not with taxing foreign pensions .... if Australia does not tax its pensions as those that get it are considered to be under their means test ... what gives Croatia the right to tax those pensions if they are received here? Are we trying to turn away pensioners that only are here to spend their money? Truely, sometimes I am just amazed at the mentality of our government.
Look forward to your post MH.
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Post by mh on Mar 3, 2013 10:55:47 GMT 1
I can only repeat myself - If you do not like it - LEAVE.
If in any doubt, the lessons of Spain, Portugal etc shows that foreign investors are happy to leave countries in troubles and let people to suffer the downturn. They enjoy tax benefits, profits, but when life gets tough they leave people unemployed and penniless.
What communism in Croatia? As much as I know, more communists are in EU, Brussels, ... Do you need names? Barroso is a former ultra left communist. New soon-to-be Italian premier is a communist, as well as presidents... Please give me a break with these nonsenses.
Croatia is a sovereign nation and will tax as finds appropriate. Every country tax pensions that exceed certain limit. The problem the limit is Croatia is so low is because the pensions are low. Please keep in mind that Croatian worker is taxed to the bone with higher rates and low tax brackets then in any other OECD country. So, any complaint of spoiled investor - retiree is laughable.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 3, 2013 11:13:49 GMT 1
I can only repeat myself - If you do not like it - LEAVE. If in any doubt, the lessons of Spain, Portugal etc shows that foreign investors are happy to leave countries in troubles and let people to suffer the downturn. They enjoy tax benefits, profits, but when life gets tough they leave people unemployed and penniless. What communism in Croatia? As much as I know, more communists are in EU, Brussels, ... Do you need names? Barroso is a former ultra left communist. New soon-to-be Italian premier is a communist, as well as presidents... Please give me a break with these nonsenses. Croatia is a sovereign nation and will tax as finds appropriate. Every country tax pensions that exceed certain limit. The problem the limit is Croatia is so low is because the pensions are low. Please keep in mind that Croatian worker is taxed to the bone with higher rates and low tax brackets then in any other OECD country. So, any complaint of spoiled investor - retiree is laughable. Congratulations MH, your first posting that made sense.
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Post by mh on Mar 3, 2013 12:51:41 GMT 1
What make sense now? The fact I presented that the Commies are rulling the EU? Real problem is how many more have washed up their biographies, like 97% of HDZ? Problem is they say they are reformed, like rehab junkies..... The real fact is Marx was right, maybe not about society and politics, religion and states, but his economy was spot on. Soon, we might end up with the junkies rediscovering their youth ideas. And the would be a real Europian sugger and stuffup.
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Post by amatesic on Mar 3, 2013 15:11:12 GMT 1
Sorry my friend I am staying .... like I said I love it here and my children come to visit and they love it here. We have a beautiful house on the sea. Why would I leave?
BTW I am not complaining, just listening, informing myself and observing.
Foreign investors take calculated risks, I believe the first lot of investors that came here, both foreigners and returnee Croatians were excited about Croatia and its potential but also somewhat naive and driven by emotion. Croatia has a very beautiful unspoilt coastline.
I would also put foreign banks in a separate category, they are excited about the foreign investment excitement but they are not naive.
Marx's economy was spot on ... but unachievable due to human nature.
Taxing foreign pensions is so stupid .... pensioners buy property, fix up property, spend money on services, both health and everything else, their children come to visit and spend, they fly out to visit their children .... we are just shooting ourselves in the foot by taxing them, also why should the money go to the Croatian government vs going to the people who provide the pensioners with services.
You are saying that because Croatians pensions are low so that is an argument to tax foreign pensions. Why would the government who represents its people have it that foreigners should get their pensions reduced to that of Croatians. Croatia is not paying these pensions.
See what I mean by the mentality that needs to change?
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Post by crojoe on Mar 3, 2013 16:38:19 GMT 1
Sorry my friend I am staying .... like I said I love it here and my children come to visit and they love it here. We have a beautiful house on the sea. Why would I leave? BTW I am not complaining, just listening, informing myself and observing. Foreign investors take calculated risks, I believe the first lot of investors that came here, both foreigners and returnee Croatians were excited about Croatia and its potential but also somewhat naive and driven by emotion. Croatia has a very beautiful unspoilt coastline. I would also put foreign banks in a separate category, they are excited about the foreign investment excitement but they are not naive. Marx's economy was spot on ... but unachievable due to human nature. Taxing foreign pensions is so stupid .... pensioners buy property, fix up property, spend money on services, both health and everything else, their children come to visit and spend, they fly out to visit their children .... we are just shooting ourselves in the foot by taxing them, also why should the money go to the Croatian government vs going to the people who provide the pensioners with services. You are saying that because Croatians pensions are low so that is an argument to tax foreign pensions. Why would the government who represents its people have it that foreigners should get their pensions reduced to that of Croatians. Croatia is not paying these pensions. See what I mean by the mentality that needs to change? So true! But there are a load of ways to get around this pension thing, such as have it put into a bank abroad then just use a card to pay bills ( a number of Croatian owned computer based firms offering their services to international clients use this very same process .. chew on that one MH). I think Croatia will have to drop this crazy law idea soon, as it will be very unpopular. Like you say, who cares what the Croatian government think should be done as they ain't the ones paying the pension. Granted, if you make money in Croatia then I agree "all" should pay their dues (including big business). In the many years I have lived in HR, I must say I have never been so amused at all the grey schemes available to the common business owner in Croatia (if one dares to try them / only for Croats). One might think people here are being taxed to the hilt, but in truth it's only on declared monies. Plenty of cash still flows between hands over bank transfers.
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Post by amatesic on Mar 3, 2013 18:50:42 GMT 1
Thanks CroJoe, I already advised my parents to do just that .... they have an account in xxxx, and got my brother who has power of attorney for them in xxxxxx to transfer their pension into that account.
However, its the very action of our Government that offends returning Croatians especially .... you can find them if you google the reactions of american, canadian and australian croatians ... their reaction is ... f..k you Croatia ... I will be selling up everything in Croatia and will not return ... suggestions for Australians are Bali .... for Americans ... Costa Rica. I have a Croatian friend in Indonesia .... he lives in Lovina Bali like a king and says there are heaps of expats from Europe and Australia. So heading there for a holiday late this year. He purchased a nice land parcel last year, it has doubled in price. And says the weather is heaven. One can get retirement visas renewable every year. No property tax. Good healthy food. Nice beaches.
Don't get me wrong I do not mind paying property tax but wish I had city sewerage, or even gutters on my road, instead everytime it rains there is a river running down the road in front of my house. I just hope we get some of these services in return for this tax. But I know it will not be in my life time. So I do not sweat it.
Also I wish they would bring back planned housing developments in Zadar .... bring back komizacija of building land. They should not allow people to builld on higglety pigglety plots of land. They may be the right size but the dimensions may be way off. I live in Diklo and its supposed to be the elite area of Zadar. Well, the term elite is relative, because lots of foreigners cannot see what is elite about it. And now because we are in this "elite" area, near the sea, legalizing our property costs us more in Diklo and our property tax will probably be more, regardless of the fact that our house might be a bungelow next door to a mansion. So poor people are slowly being forced out of their ancestoral homes and land, or they have to sell some of it to be able to continue to live in what is now an "elite" village in Zadar.
We have such a long way to go until we get things right in Croatia.
I agree with your grey schemes available to the common business owner comment, and a lot of them are completely legal, I have found some in my business. But big investors know the schemes, one only has to see how many companies one investment group opens up in Croatia, one for each separate property or business area. They do this for very good reasons.
You also mention bank transfers, however even small bank transfers are tripping wires as sine banks are policing for the government. I had a renter pay a 200 euro deposit for my parents rental (they only have one small apartment they rent out during the summer) into my account (my dad had a zero account but at that minute in quickly responding to the renter I was not thinking and just gave them my personal account) however it was a problem and voila I had to open a zero account in that bank or tell the renter to rewire to my parents zero account. I could not be bothered. I just opened a zero account at that bank for this one transaction. I closed all of my accounts at that particular bank the next week. Won't make that mistake again. It was stupid of me especially when I had a paypal account attached to an outside bank account I was just not thinking straight that day.
All of Croatia's policing will not work in the governments favor. In America ... I was a sole proprietor. I did my own taxes sometimes, sometimes my accountant did them for me, depending on the year. I may have been tempted to cheat a little here and there but I knew the consequences if I was unlucky in the draw to be spot checked that year and they found discrepancies....the tax department would then investigate up to 7 years of tax returns. It was not worth cheating. Again my point is, why does Croatia just not investigate what other's do successfully, why does the government choose to complicate life for everyone and themselves with checks and balances all over the place and then having to police them. Not very cost effective. There are better systems but Croatians think they know best .... so change will take a very long time.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 3, 2013 22:51:47 GMT 1
Thanks CroJoe, I already advised my parents to do just that .... they have an account in xxxx, and got my brother who has power of attorney for them in xxxxxx to transfer their pension into that account. However, its the very action of our Government that offends returning Croatians especially .... you can find them if you google the reactions of american, canadian and australian croatians ... their reaction is ... f..k you Croatia ... I will be selling up everything in Croatia and will not return ... suggestions for Australians are Bali .... for Americans ... Costa Rica. I have a Croatian friend in Indonesia .... he lives in Lovina Bali like a king and says there are heaps of expats from Europe and Australia. So heading there for a holiday late this year. He purchased a nice land parcel last year, it has doubled in price. And says the weather is heaven. One can get retirement visas renewable every year. No property tax. Good healthy food. Nice beaches. Don't get me wrong I do not mind paying property tax but wish I had city sewerage, or even gutters on my road, instead everytime it rains there is a river running down the road in front of my house. I just hope we get some of these services in return for this tax. But I know it will not be in my life time. So I do not sweat it. Also I wish they would bring back planned housing developments in Zadar .... bring back komizacija of building land. They should not allow people to builld on higglety pigglety plots of land. They may be the right size but the dimensions may be way off. I live in Diklo and its supposed to be the elite area of Zadar. Well, the term elite is relative, because lots of foreigners cannot see what is elite about it. And now because we are in this "elite" area, near the sea, legalizing our property costs us more in Diklo and our property tax will probably be more, regardless of the fact that our house might be a bungelow next door to a mansion. So poor people are slowly being forced out of their ancestoral homes and land, or they have to sell some of it to be able to continue to live in what is now an "elite" village in Zadar. We have such a long way to go until we get things right in Croatia. I agree with your grey schemes available to the common business owner comment, and a lot of them are completely legal, I have found some in my business. But big investors know the schemes, one only has to see how many companies one investment group opens up in Croatia, one for each separate property or business area. They do this for very good reasons. You also mention bank transfers, however even small bank transfers are tripping wires as sine banks are policing for the government. I had a renter pay a 200 euro deposit for my parents rental (they only have one small apartment they rent out during the summer) into my account (my dad had a zero account but at that minute in quickly responding to the renter I was not thinking and just gave them my personal account) however it was a problem and voila I had to open a zero account in that bank or tell the renter to rewire to my parents zero account. I could not be bothered. I just opened a zero account at that bank for this one transaction. I closed all of my accounts at that particular bank the next week. Won't make that mistake again. It was stupid of me especially when I had a paypal account attached to an outside bank account I was just not thinking straight that day. All of Croatia's policing will not work in the governments favor. In America ... I was a sole proprietor. I did my own taxes sometimes, sometimes my accountant did them for me, depending on the year. I may have been tempted to cheat a little here and there but I knew the consequences if I was unlucky in the draw to be spot checked that year and they found discrepancies....the tax department would then investigate up to 7 years of tax returns. It was not worth cheating. Again my point is, why does Croatia just not investigate what other's do successfully, why does the government choose to complicate life for everyone and themselves with checks and balances all over the place and then having to police them. Not very cost effective. There are better systems but Croatians think they know best .... so change will take a very long time. Bali is great for normal folks, as lived in Indonesia as a pre-teen for 3 years, even went to an Indonesian school for one year (Catholic school with an American Nun teaching me - Ha). Even then I loved the place, the beach and the kind hospitality of the locals. Of course it is very different to Croatia, but I fully understand where you are coming from. Although, as an Aussie I would retire in Aussie over Croatia any day (just not old enough yet), just head towards Queensland. Of course money will go further in Indonesia and you would think the same here.
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 4, 2013 18:16:04 GMT 1
Finally I've found the time to read through this thread, and what a breath of fresh air it is. It seems Joe and amatesic have had similar backgrounds to me and similar experiences here in HR. I am sorry you've (amatesic) have decided to take a back seat in investment terms although, like you, I've had to lick some wounds from my own attempts and am also content to sit back and watch the situation. Using my own Focus/Plan/Do/Review process of project management, I am in the review mode and the conclusions thus far mean that I won't be focussing on anything new for a while. I'll also watch closely the foreign pensions debacle although, as CroJoe aptly put it, I could drive a bus through the currently perceived loopholes.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 4, 2013 19:09:05 GMT 1
I know this might sound strange, but having been in Croatia for longer then a tourist, dabbling a bit in commerce and social help activities I often face a personal dilemma of doing business according to good work ethics / morals, or the Croatian way. What I mean by this is I want to pay my taxes, I want to fulfill the law and be an upright citizen (are you proud of me MH?), but it does seem such a path doesn't lead to riches. Many of my good Croatian friends enjoy passing on the wealth of experience on how to cream the system, loop holes within loop holes and more. I think I could write a book on 100 ways to get around the HR system pretty soon. Who knows, it might be a "best seller".
I am still a firm believer that 80% of Croatia functions by: "Not what you know, but who you know".
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Post by mh on Mar 4, 2013 23:11:38 GMT 1
So much false statements, misconceptions and prejudice....
People that were obedient citizens and, as they claim, hardworking, come to another country and claim Croatian laws are wrong? What a nonsense! In every country personal income is taxed, salary, pension etc. This is OK for all countries in the world, but not for Croatia. People normally spend their working lives paying taxes and in retirement they are taxed less. If you are switching countries, you will certainly be charged for the fact that you did not contribute to health and social system. As you get older, you start using this system more then when uou are young. That is why they ask citizens to come to the party and pay tax on pensions. That would happen in almost any country. State coffers are not endless as some of you might think and the state is getting sick and tired of "stimulating investors". Let them pay, if they complain, let them go.
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Post by crojoe on Mar 5, 2013 0:35:56 GMT 1
So much false statements, misconceptions and prejudice.... People that were obedient citizens and, as they claim, hardworking, come to another country and claim Croatian laws are wrong? What a nonsense! In every country personal income is taxed, salary, pension etc. This is OK for all countries in the world, but not for Croatia. People normally spend their working lives paying taxes and in retirement they are taxed less. If you are switching countries, you will certainly be charged for the fact that you did not contribute to health and social system. As you get older, you start using this system more then when uou are young. That is why they ask citizens to come to the party and pay tax on pensions. That would happen in almost any country. State coffers are not endless as some of you might think and the state is getting sick and tired of "stimulating investors". Let them pay, if they complain, let them go. Sorry MH, your wrong. What your talking about is health insurance which anyone with a visa to stay in Croatia must pay (Croatian or foreigner). We pay it as we work, we also pay PDV and income tax of 20%. And unless your a foreigner MH, you have no idea what we foreigners do, what taxes we pay and how we do business, so before you shoot off again trying to preach justice, get your facts straight! What your trying to do is just argue with about 11 people on this forum who have lived in Croatia for years, know the situation, have businesses. It you want to fight for a cause then go talk up a storm to your own people, your own government and most of all go out and spend your money and time helping poor people. Once you do all that, then you can start preaching to the rest of us.
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Post by amatesic on Mar 5, 2013 8:04:27 GMT 1
MH - What a bunch of hogwash!
I agree with Crojoe with regards to your attitude.
I would even go as far as to say that even if what MH thinks is true, is true, which it isn't, his additude is so indicative of a minority Croatian mentality "alls well while we are all equal, but you can't be better off than me", which unfortunately creates a generalization of perception of the whole ... because these minorities are also "loud".
I am an immigrant, my parents returnee Croatians, and MH is wrongly insinuating that they as pensioners, are able to cllaim health insurance here. They had to pay to be covered by the basic health system .... about 15,000 dollars back in 1993 ... and based on their pensions they pay the extra "dopunski" every year ... and they contribute to the private sector and use private clinics, facilities, blood labs, etc. as they do not want to wait in line for a service.
Croatia in taxing foreign pensions is shooting itself in the foot, or better yet this saying applies: "Cutting off the nose to spite the face"
MH look in the mirror when you say "So much false statements, misconceptions and prejudice.... " and read up on psychology, especially defensive mechanism - what you actually says, is reflective of your own behavior.
MH you do make it entertaining here. When I read your comments they make me laugh.
Its a shame though, that a minority of Croatians, and MH you are in the minority, contribute to generalities made about Croatians, just spoiling life for your fellow neighbor, the majority Croatians, who are gentle, kind, welcoming, romantic and gracious. Which is why I love it here and stay in spite of the few like you. Because, eventually, we, the majority, slowly but surely, will shape generalizations of us to be more reflective of the majority.
I see it in my work everyday. The minority with your mentality, and the majority unlike you, who due to a "family oriented mentality" allow you to be heard. This will change as Croatia becomes a more mature democratic country. And it will, its just a matter of time.
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Post by justapixel on Mar 5, 2013 10:15:48 GMT 1
Hey guys, you're far too preoccupied with handling MH, who's obviously a troll. You should really work more on your troll detection skills, because, frankly, they suck. For starters, first rule of handling trolls is "don't feed the troll". You should starve them. .
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