|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 6, 2005 0:15:27 GMT 1
My daughter has just sent me a book called..
Croatia - A nation forged in war.
Written by Marcus Tanner of the UK newspaper "Independent".
It seems this is a 2nd edition. I was wondering if anyone had read the first edition (published 1997) and had views upon it's subjectivity and accuracy?
|
|
|
Post by Frank on Apr 6, 2005 7:48:34 GMT 1
It is generally quite balanced. I read the first edition and I am slowly reading the second edition. Another good book re Croatian history is one written by Ivo Goldstein a professor @ Zagreb uni . Its title is something like Croatia - A History - I am not too sure as I read it a while back. For some good balanced reporting re topical issues on Croatia and the Blakan region see the following sites - they are excellent and generally balanced: www.iwpr.net/balkans_index1.htmland www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric unplugged on Apr 7, 2005 23:47:10 GMT 1
Thanks Frank.
Reading through iwpr piece on the EU talks problems, the thought that ultra nationalsts gain the upper hand scares the cr*p out of me.
You?
|
|
|
Post by Rob1301 on Apr 8, 2005 2:53:54 GMT 1
Another fascinating read is Richard Holbrooke's "To End A War", which goes into great details about the negotiations in Dayton, Ohio, just prior to the signing of the Dayton Peace Accord.
Rob
|
|
|
Post by barba Jere on Apr 11, 2005 11:37:47 GMT 1
Ivo Goldstein is most respected balanced Croatian Historian at the moment not influenced by right or left wing version of History.
|
|
|
Post by shamrock on Apr 12, 2005 3:12:57 GMT 1
Hi, I read the first edtion when it first came out and enjoyed it,the fact is was a lone publication on the History Shelves here in Dublin meant I hadn't much to judge it by.I have since read Ivo Goldsteins book and a number of others and found them all enjoyable.Black lamb Grey Falcon by Rebbeca West is also worth a read as it gives a broad history of Yugoslavia before the second World War.
Shamrock
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 12, 2005 15:19:35 GMT 1
I alway's like to get a balanced view and, having now read this new book (an updated version of "Croatia - A nation forged in war), I feel I have read the view of someone who wants to be seen as purley objective and even handed. I do get a slight feeling though that the writer is a bit Pro Croatian but takes care not to show it.
It's a view of the political machinations during the past 1000 years although, until 1825, it is mainly a history lesson. After that, it attempts to give a view of the main players and the pressures exerted upon them in thier attempts to influence Croatia. To the non-expert (that's me) I find I needed to keep a notebook of all the names that appear and then disappear and a simple map to keep drawing and re-drawing ever-changing borders.
I seem to have modified my views somewhat in terms of how realistic it is to expect the Croat/Serb/Muslim populations to have any level of trust between them. I now don't think it's going to happen for many generations.
It's worth a read but I'll need to go through at least one more time to get a grip on who did what to whom, when and why.
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Apr 12, 2005 16:12:41 GMT 1
I think you're being polite Pete, I think the book although interesting is incredibly subjective, but like you I found him almost tripping over himself to be seen as being objective. I can recount at least 10 Croats who were desperate for me to read this book, after my inquisitively ignorant questions were put to them; they're hardly likely to all recommend something that doesn't make Croatia look good. I have read books than are more subjective, and it is interesting BUT it covers too much of Croatia's history for those of us who really wanted to get an insight into the last war. There is too much an attitude of building Croatia up as a poor battered and bruised country that finally fought back thus most things are excusable.
It seems ridiculous but it is very difficult to get a true objective accountant of history here, the Croats say one thing, the Serbs say another etc.
I tend to hedge that it is somewhere in the middle.
If anybody has a truly objective book, I would be interested in your recommendations.
If anybody has any kids at locals school, ask them to talk to you about Croatian history, even now it is beyond subjective, it is pure propaganda.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 12, 2005 17:16:24 GMT 1
Well, I honnestly think it is about time for you to write fist objective Croatian history.
|
|
|
Post by barba Jere on Apr 12, 2005 17:43:01 GMT 1
EMIZ genious of general practice. Tell me what field of experise you dont cover? From History to gastrononomy and comerce and weather EMIZ has master it and has bad opinion of it.
I think its time to change your nick in to Genious EMIZ
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 12, 2005 17:44:33 GMT 1
Or simply - CroatoPHOBIZ
|
|
|
Post by barba Jere on Apr 12, 2005 17:50:36 GMT 1
i called him croatofob and he kept telling me that is not a word.
see even master linguistics.
he covers all fields.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 12, 2005 17:54:48 GMT 1
i called him croatofob and he kept telling me that is not a word. see even master linguistics. he covers all fields. Well, it is ... from latin base "phobia" ... meaning fear, as I know.
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Apr 12, 2005 18:25:58 GMT 1
I am only interested in the truth, as I said...tell me one book that is objective and I will read it, ba ba don't respond because you don't know how to be objective. You’re a self declared nationalist.
As soon as you have an agenda you can't be objective, how can I be afraid of Croatians, I live here (for now), I am married to a wonderful Croat (who also hates the same bs I see here). I will have children that are half Croatian and I will teach then to be proud of that, but what I won’t teach them is to lie about their history, to lie about how things are now, or to claim everything Croatian is better than every other countries offering. I will also teach them not to harbour nationalistic feelings, I feel to do this properly Croatia is not the place to raise a child. Tell me one objective book, I am very interested in the last war, I am not interested in reading somebody biased views.
...btw..it's not a word ;D, keep trying!
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Apr 12, 2005 18:43:39 GMT 1
Well, I really don't want to argue, nor I have some special "point".
But if you know what is not truth and what is propaganda, only thing left is - truth.
Croatophobia is not related to your personal standpoint in "special cases" (wife, children, people you know). Just in general you see Croats as some specific group of people related to negative ...
It is legitimate stanpoint, and argumentative too. But you must understand that generalisations of any kind and "truth" dont fit together, no metter what you are trying to prove. Especialy in history. This is why none "national" history is objective, or any can be called - propaganda.
If you believe that such approach is only valuable in case of Croats and nobody else, then you are Croatophob, because you eveluate Croats only "outside context" and see them "inside wider context" as - excuse.
Haveing such approach on some nations history (defining it's context only as exclusive - as objectiv, and inclusive as - fake) is - politophobic, and it is not my invention.
Someone can "hate" all negativities he can notice, and never notice that such "constructive hate" makes him - exclusive.
You really can be complete anti-rasist and still share many parts of "menthal engine" with them.
|
|