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Post by Old Guest on Apr 22, 2005 21:51:06 GMT 1
Croam, this is too complicated issue for my small brain ...
Serbia and Croatia are less possible as destabilisation factors, so it is mostly internal order in Bosnia what is under question ... And it depends on many factors.
First, general constitution of country. Basicaly, Bosnia is already divided on Republic Of Srpska and Federation Of Bosnia and Hercegovina. Above everything is internation comunity's "protector".
Serbs have strong "authonomy" (almost on level of state), ethnicaly cleansed theritory. While Federation part is mostly divided on regional segments (like cantons in Switzerland) defined by Muslim or Croat majority.
So, to understand what is going on with Bosnia now, I must compare it to what Bosnia was before. And it is all about "constitutional protection keys".
Bosnia before war "country of 3 contitutional elements with same rights", based on principles - 1 national element - 1 vote. Then, during first democratic election EU insisted this should be removed because they sow it as "anti-democratical" coliding with "1 citizen - 1 vote" principles (unfortunately, now Miloshevic is defending himself about Bosnia with this fact). So, to cut long story - this gave opportunity to Bosnian muslims to gain majority on elections, Serbs sow this as great excuse, Croatians realised they are becoming less then minority and - war started.
So, it was all about "balancing", and "disbalancing".
Today, international comunity is searching for method to establish balance, but without reinforcing same "constitutional protection keys" which they removed, mostly acting like "blind in darness".
About new war, I don't think new war is possible. First because international comunity have strong mechanisms for preventing it, and secons because extremists got pritty tired from status quo. And this is moment for civile society to enter on political scene.
So far it is hard, and looks like desperate goal. But you must take in consideration that international comuniy can stop playing "nice guy" in moments when extremists go too far. And even "deconstruct" Republic Of Srpska at some moment.
So far most interesting element is muslim one. Their reactions changed al lot after Serbia and Cratia politicaly completly stoped to influence Bosnia.
Now they tend to drag them back into Bosnian internal political problems, because they are scared for their own extremism geting turn for "revision", by international comunity. Time for this is slowly aproaching, and panic is growing and escalating in sort of "trade wars", so far with Croatia.
We can expect "economic claustrophobia" to grow more as international comunity will tight a knot around extremists neck (all 3 of them), but at same time manuevering space for them to start new war when realising they are on "point of no return" is very small.
Unfortunately, bringing some mechanism's from Before war in Bosnian constitution is necessery, at least for so long until Bosnia become ready to enter EU.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 22, 2005 22:48:04 GMT 1
i agree about keeping the muslims out....their religion is not compatible with western society..not even the non-extremist muslims which are the majority. Our whole way of life goes against their god and religion so they should keep to themselves. I don't know why anyone bought into the idea of all mixing together into one big soup anyway. It only works in America because people become "americans" and even though they cling to their cultural roots(only the first few generations) they still become "westernized". To become westernized to muslims would be sacriligous. I don't know why we have to have "one culture" but all mixing together. What will there be 200 years from now? Are we all going to be Americans or Europeans? I personally like different cultures and their traditions and language and am not a big fan of this globalization of culture. Its just like what Hitler was doing only 180 degrees but eventually you will have less and less cultures and races and then what will you have? The same thing Hitler wanted: One Race. f**k all that.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 22, 2005 23:00:09 GMT 1
Nobody is "mixing religions", but concept of "living from religion or nationality" is wrong one by my oppinion. So distancing religions in Bosnia or putting them under influence of Serbia or/and Croatia is not possible. Consept of Islam and "civile society" are in collision but only if religios part get manipulated by politics (Islamic fundamentalism). Arab sheiks doesn't have problem in living "western life" in Islamic states until religious influence is alowing them to keep labour poore and in fear. Each tirany find its own excuses in some "dogma", and never echanges of "dogmas" brought anything good for society. So, if surrounding is safe, Bosnia has future because people there are slowly getting tired of "life for religion/nation" while Sheiks/Sherifs are enjoying their religious/national Oasas.
By my oppinion there is no person on this planet which will not enjoy freedom if it is "real", and feeling of freedom will never collide with their religious and/or national pride. But unfortunately, tirans of all kinds knows this good as well.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 22, 2005 23:09:57 GMT 1
i was speaking more of on a global level with my last statement.
but your right...HOWEVER.... I don't see Religions(The Big 3) giving away their power anytime soon. So what you are talking about is freedom from dogma...and jesus f**king christ look at the US and the "religous" nut jobs running it and the majority vote. They think they are Christian but alot of them are pigs...especially at the top. Funny you mentioned being free...i realized today some things i said that i wasn't happy about or wished i could have done different...and i caught myself before i slipped into a depression(not clinical but bad enough) beating myself up over past mistakes and f**king up my present by being negative. Then i realized...oh..thats my old friend GUILT...from being raised Catholic and then i made that connection that maybe it all stems from that guilt trip we are spoon fed from Catholicism from a young age. I think people should feel bad when they screw up but not for very long as long as they learn from it. I realized that was part of my "neurosis". Maybe i can get rid of my friend guilt in aonther ten years....or at least stop it when it comes out from hiding. Again,this has to do with dogma and how it really does enslave you. I'm still a slave to guilt so i must be right to a degree. Without State power or Dogmatic power, what is there? true freedom...but come on, who is really free in this day and age. We have some freedoms...some more than others...more like priveleges...priveleges that can be taken away...true freedom is a thing of the past and has been bastardized and was always a fleeting thing anyway. Like everything in life...fleeting and elusive....oh so temporary.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 22, 2005 23:13:25 GMT 1
and the "beauty"( i use that term loosely here and in jest) of the systems of control(religion and governments) is that they aren't as fleeting as we are. At least religion isn't. Its here to stay unless it gets soooo ugly that people all over the world see it for what it is...ALL 3!!! and revolt which would even be a bloodier mess so I think the only way to go is "play along" as much as you have to and live as free as you can in the moments you can get away with it. Am i being too pessimistic? We will all be dead and there will still be Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I'll be in a hole in the ground. But maybe I'll get to make a small mark on history...who knows...or maybe no one will even know i existed 200 years from now. Time will tell. ;D
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 22, 2005 23:16:57 GMT 1
Freedom is utopia opposing "dogma" as religious chategory. Freedom doesn't exclude anything unlike religion which is based on "restrictions". And balance between those two is called - low. By accepting equality between this two utopias and inforcing low as limit for individal "enjoying" any of this two utopias by "self accepted will", you get - civile society.
Then comes "upgrades" ... tolerance, democracy (as Beta version) ... and we will see how will "final product" look like when on "market ... so far too many "bugs" in code ... some important features missing ... But, I really believe that humans got general idea about "user interface".
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 22, 2005 23:20:35 GMT 1
i agree with you wholeheartedly and I hope your right about humans "figuring it out"...i'm talking about the glitches in the program
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 22, 2005 23:24:36 GMT 1
I understand . But runing "virus scanner" and installing some "firewall" can make you less depressed, until "beta testers" finaly start to RTM (Read the f***ing manual), hehehhe.
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Post by irac on Apr 23, 2005 0:14:18 GMT 1
croam, no religion, if truly followed, is compatible with your idea of western society. Islam would be most in line with modern attitudes (the freedom to worship God individually and not having to follow the line of some guy in Rome, tolerance of other religions etc). However, the light in which Islam is viewed is simliar to Catholicism in the 1950's, or modern Croatia , or modern day "born agains" eg mr. Bush. Growing up in a catholic country, and experiencing life in the Middle East, and now living in Croatia, I've found the Bosnian brand of religion (Ortho, Cath and Mus) to be almost indistinguishable. Horses by different names, or a realistic melting pot?
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 23, 2005 2:00:45 GMT 1
oh of course they are all the same!! I totally agree with you that at each individual core they are all the same so I wont "preach to the choir" because "those who know, know" and those who don't wouldn't believe you even if you beat them to death...and I don't try to convince people of things too much except sometimes intellectually debating... but i could care less if you worship a f**king squirrel or a giraff or Allah or Christ as long as you don't try to "convince me" of your pereception of life. Soooooooooo, all three are the same but interestingly im realizing as I carry on this dialogue with you what is happening in the world. It is these maniacs who are bastardizing all of their own faiths!! if they are all the same and theres one god then whats the point of religion anyway other than a way for HUMANS to control other HUMANS...with a SILENT GOD who doesn't intervene for any of the three....and its worked for thousands of years that way. These people should be free to believe in their Gods as long as they don't try to make others believe it that aren't interested. If you go back far enough in history you will see that ***everything under the sun has been justified for one reason or another*** sick and deplorable things in the name of "Gods" and "beliefs" that are repugnant and inhumane so why the hell should it surprise me that its still going on. The "free thinkers" have been cast aside to the internet forumns to discuss their ideas in their miniscule numbers, or cafes and living rooms over beer. Its a sad day for freedom and i live in the most free country...go figure....i better shut up before the secret police come after me.
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Post by star on Apr 23, 2005 2:30:31 GMT 1
It always amazes me how many "free thinkers" really just parrot what they read in ayn rand novels or the like and aren't really free thinkers at all.
Not that I'm accusing anyone here of that.....
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 23, 2005 3:22:43 GMT 1
what kind of novels??
if your not accusing anyone of that then whats the point? by putting that right after i used that phrase it implies that you meant it towards me... I know your saying that you aren't but it comes off like that. You could post a "free thinkers thread" but this is about ethnic groups reintegrating and you seem to be a bit off topic. I'm not trying to be an internet nazi or anything or try to sensor you just letting you know what your statement "within the context" sounds like. Feel free to dissect any of my statements. Hell i could be wrong i make mistakes all the time. Cheers!
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Post by star on Apr 23, 2005 6:03:20 GMT 1
croam, its just that kind of atheist bs has been floating around university campuses for decades. The last few years people have realized it was all crap and now there is a conservative upswing. The fact is that the religion free societies have been the most brutal in history while completely secular societies are going through a demographic meltdown. The term "free thinker" in my opinion is a misnomer since most people just regurgitate what they were taught or had read. But thats for another thread.
The common response for all the worlds problems is that "if only those religious nutcases would go away and shut up!" When the issue is more complex than that. There is power politics, culture and different political histories at play as well, which is much harder to overcome. The more I talk to people from over there, the more I get the impression that religion was just an incidental. Heck, most of them never set foot in church. One Bosnian muslim guy even drinks alcohol and eats pork with my Croat neighbour.
In 1935 French diplomat Henri Pozzi wrote a first hand account of his visits to Yugolsavia called "Black Hand Over Europe" I think you'll find alot of what he wrote then still applies today. In another age Pozzi would probably have been considered a prophet:
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Post by irac on Apr 23, 2005 8:26:26 GMT 1
star, aetheists are devotees who will still call out god's names in times of stress, and balk when it comes to explaining the unexplained. Old guest is right when saying that all religion comes from the same ethic, love each other and live and let live. The original islamic thought, before Mohammed's 1st wife died and he was no longer a kept man, is essentially counteracting the problems and anti-female behaviour of the Jewish and Christian faiths. All three religions have been twisted and torn and perverted in order to further groups or individuals agendas, who conveniently forget that each person's religion is their own matter.
A leading Sheikh told me that all religions need to co-exist, that they need to work together in order to stamp out corruption of thought and practice. Touching the tip of his nose he told me "Your religion ends here. I respect yours and I only ask that you do the same for me." This is the same man who's amazingly bold and progressive act of remembering the last Pope in their prayers the day after his death in the Great Mosque in Mecca was almost completely unreported outside of the Middle East and Islamic states. Old guest, we'd better watch out talking too liberal or I'll be seeing you in Guantanamo!
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 23, 2005 11:30:06 GMT 1
Hmmm, I don't understand in what way I was talking "too liberal", for you to see it in negative context ?
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