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Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 23, 2005 20:45:48 GMT 1
Irac, that has got to be the biggest load of crap I had ever read in my entire life. I can tell you had only read enlightenment propaganda. Anyone who had really studied medieval history would laugh at your post. This is why the world is turning more conservative. The secularists just make themselves look foolish by writing obvious falsehoods which is a shame because there is no need to do so. Go read the writings of Aquinas, Adelard of Bath, Robert Grossesteste, Roger Bacon or Bernadine of Sienna. The nucleus of Western Civilization lies in the writings of these and other medieval clerics. As I've said before. Islam only tolerates other religions if they are subordinate to them. The economic pressures of the jizia tax on nonbelievers and living as second class citizens ensures the eventual conversion of the populace to Islam. And thats only if you are of an Abrahamic faith. God help you if you are a hindu. No option of paying the tax then, just convert or die. The only one that is speaking any truth here is STAR! The rest of you are candy coating the muslim religion or you don't know anything about it. What star said is true. Muslims only tolerate other religions. If they get any power in a country they will take it over and you must convert or leave. I know quite a few muslims and it is quite funny the face they put on for the westerner but it is quite scary when listening to them when they are by themselves and they talk about their koran and what the world should be like. I feel completely sorry for a lot of women who are stuck in Muslim countries! What a horrible life! Even the Muslim countries that are supposedly westernized. Women are mistreated and are 2nd class citizens. At the rate of conversion and population expansion of Muslims, they will take over the world. God help all of us then! Convert or die!
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 23, 2005 21:05:05 GMT 1
i'm not a fan of Islam and never said anything supporting them, for the record. I think you have a point that they know they are being spied on and aren't stupid enough to share their insanity with a westerner...they may be crazy but they aren't stupid.
The aren't all crazy extremists but neither are all Christians... and you can't say that Islam is more against other religions than others because you extremist christians who cherry pick crazy ideas from the old testament and justify alot of their own insanity. Life is what matters...how you live it...hopefully to the best of your abilities given your circumstances...not how many times a week you go to church or bow down to allah. I've known just as many "bad people" who went to church alot and were "devout" christians as I have who didn't have any religion at all. So i don't think there is a correlation between religion and being good...i know people who are very good and are athiests but they are philosophers and they like being good because, either way, wether or not god exists, that is the best thing to do. Just some random thoughts on the subject.
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Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 23, 2005 21:20:54 GMT 1
Problem with this religion and not the others is what is in the Koran.
Open up a Koran and read it!
The Koran says not in exact words but the best way to put it. There is no room for other religions and other religions must go if they don't believe in the Koran or allah.
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Post by irac on Apr 23, 2005 21:43:30 GMT 1
ghost, you obviously haven't read the Qu'aran, or you'd not contradict yourself.
"What star said is true. Muslims only tolerate other religions"
You're so right, they do tolerate, and when you visit one of these countries, like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Bangladesh and then you'll know whereof you speak.
Oh wait, maybe it's better to get a female view from Croatia, where domestic violence and female servitude is not only tolerated but custom, so when you next have a holiday in Croatia you can check that out too!
The sad fact is that there are so many misconceptions on all sides that those who want to maintain their power and profits ont he backs and miseries of the decent majority are doing a great job convincing the masses.
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Post by Ghost Writer on Apr 23, 2005 22:08:14 GMT 1
ghost, you obviously haven't read the Qu'aran, or you'd not contradict yourself. "What star said is true. Muslims only tolerate other religions" You're so right, they do tolerate, and when you visit one of these countries, like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Bangladesh and then you'll know whereof you speak. Oh wait, maybe it's better to get a female view from Croatia, where domestic violence and female servitude is not only tolerated but custom, so when you next have a holiday in Croatia you can check that out too! The sad fact is that there are so many misconceptions on all sides that those who want to maintain their power and profits ont he backs and miseries of the decent majority are doing a great job convincing the masses. The countries you speak of have terrible human rights violations and the women are treated like 2nd class citizens. Croatian women are in no way treated as badly as the women of the countries you speak of. Croatia has its share of domestic violence. Like the rest of Europe. I did not know that Croatian men in the streets could go up and hit Croatian women for what they are wearing if they disapprove. I did not know that Croatian women could be hit by Croatian men in public if they felt the Croatian women is doing something wrong or against the catholic church. This stuff does not go on in Croatia... Thank goodness but it does go on in the countries you mention. You are totally wrong about the women of the countries you are talking about. You obviously have never been to any of these countries or you would know about the abuses or you are one of those kind of men that think women are 2nd class citizens.... so which is it?
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Post by DownHill on Apr 23, 2005 22:14:32 GMT 1
Muslim women, primarily, are being oppressed, and in miltant societies are abused by radical Islam and culture just because they are women. In some Islamic cultures women are ridiculously considered to be the devil. In fact, from what I understand about the Wahhabi, they think having sex only between males secures a place with God and immortality. (A rather radical way to justify homosexuality and abuse against women, hunh?) Bottom line is it's all for control and to keep women subservient. These weak Muslim males are afraid to face truth, and hate the evolved Western world where women are free, because it threatens the loss of their old ways. (I just think they're fearful, abusive, ignorant, apathetic, and lazy, and don't know what love - the most powerful thing - is.) What is even worse is that women in Muslim nations are forced to go against each other and enforce these barberic practices for fear of not being accepted or of death. There is continued psychological, emotional, physical, and SPIRITUAL abuse - creating generations of tortured souls, who take their pain with them when they pass over. Just shows you how insane religion is. If anyone was truly spiritual, they would be ending this, not perpetuating it. Thank God I am not a Muslim living in a Muslim nation today because I'd have even less of a chance of surviving now. These Muslim women and men need more than illusions and fanatasies; they need real help, and one way that begins is by changing education and removing the lies that have been taught.
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Post by DownHill on Apr 23, 2005 22:18:43 GMT 1
But, change is underway and it will continue. Jordan is one nation currently debating change in the laws. Israel is the only place in the Middle East where an Arab woman can vote. Queen Noor and the new King Abdullah have strongly spoken out in favor of change. . In some nations, such as Saudi Arabia, they are currently going backwards. But you can't remain conflicted. You can't demand to retain women and children as your slaves and doormats, and yet employ Western music, clothing, movies, industry, and so on. It can't, won't, it doesn't work. Spiritually impossible, too.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 23, 2005 22:41:24 GMT 1
i think this was originally started to talk about the situation in the balkans...not around the world. you have to be specific because the variables and consequences in different regions vary greatly.
will serbs and croats ever re-integrate?? its already happening from what i know in croatia... will they re-integrate into a union again? i doubt it...unless its the EU but the EU is looking like it may break up anyway...so then it won't matter. The EU is teetering on collapse if the French or Dutch veto the constitution. Then what? Croatia will go on being Croatia...good for her. Life goes on with or without us. Cheers ;D
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Post by irac on Apr 23, 2005 22:50:15 GMT 1
AS a matter of interestr, how many Female Prime Ministers or Presidents have their been in Croatia, star/ghost? How come Croatia ranks in the top ten of worst environments for female development and access to wealth in the world, it's among the worst in Europe and yet you still want to deflect and look outside? When you develop a true understanding of these socities and religion then you shoudl start casting dispersions, and as for the awful homosexual slant of downhill, it truly is in descent. You're doing what is what needs to be removed from our understanding of other cultures and religions, taking a western spin that builds hate and distrust. It's like how many of teh protestant churches point to the absence of paedophilia among their clergy as to the greater enlightment of their preachers. Why are there so many child molestors in the Catholic Church? Is it the religion that allows it? The fact that in the Roman assembled and edited bible orders that women are kept in a subservient position (what are Nuns there for?), desont' mean that Catholicism or it's subsidiaries are wrong, just not embracing their true meanings and roots.
Before you guys start slating all others, rememerb what the "son" of God said, "Turn the other cheek" and "Do unto others", there is a thing called killing with kindness, try it, try respect, and maybe tehn the seeds will grow.
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Post by irac on Apr 23, 2005 22:54:41 GMT 1
well put downhill in relation to Jordan, the best place to be in the Middle East, and most progressive little trading state.
Croam, Bosnia is going to go again and the EU will go on, constitutions will be passed no matter what (look at what our glorious leader did in Ireland). Croatia is beginning to reintegrate, despite the best efforts of idiots on both sides, but it is gettgin there. And when the whole region is in the EU it's not going to matter anyway. Religion and nationality are flukes of geography and history, maybe open borders in the south-east will bring it to a good conclusion.
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 24, 2005 1:29:34 GMT 1
IRAC: is it as bad with all of the religous freaks(the extremists) not the quiet ones, in europe? If the economy keeps going up in the EU and croatia eventually joins i may move there for awhile and let the idiots here fight it out... ...I can't stand the ultra righ AND ultra left in this country...listening to them go on and on and try to maintain the "one party system", i mean two party system. I wasted my votes in the last two elections and thats it...you've both lost my vote; I'm voting straight a straight Libertarian Ticket in 2008 so you screwed up and I'm going to get my chunk of the pie too so f**k you.
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Post by star on Apr 24, 2005 2:07:41 GMT 1
AS a matter of interestr, how many Female Prime Ministers or Presidents have their been in Croatia, star/ghost? I would guess as same as many as in the USA. But given that there have only been two presidents so far in Croatia's history I'll reserve judgement. According to one webstie: Women in Croatia face no legal restrictions on participation in government or politics. Women hold 22 of the 151 parliamentary seats and 4 of the 23 cabinet positions. So 15% isn't that great, but it still beats Greece, France and Ireland. www.womenandequalityunit.gov.uk/public_life/parliament.htmDo you have a cite for this? From what I saw there were just as many women working in decent jobs in Croatia as here in Canada. Sometimes the truth hurts. They can keep their Sharia Law. I won't have anything to do with it. They're trying to introduce it here in Canada and I will vote against any party who supports it. There are just as many child molesters in the protestant churches as anywhere else. Its just that they're not a unified group and no one takes notice of an incident in some obscure congregation. The Anglican church in Australia was rocked recently by a pedophelia scandal. Actually pedophilia is not even the right term since 85% of the victims were post-pubescent, which means it was homosexual abuse. Just as many in the Church as in society at large. These people seek out positions which bring them closer to victims. Just think about how many teacher abuses you've heard over the years. There's been so many here in North America that no one takes notice anymore. How are we kept in a subservient position? You mean in the Church? Somehow I don't think the Son of Man was thinking of cultural extinction when he said that.
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Post by irac on Apr 24, 2005 7:54:53 GMT 1
star/downhill, same person right?, you have nothing to fear, don't be so bitter and angry towards other religion, Islam or no. Until you live and mix in countries under Sha'ria then you should not alone speak of books and news reports. There is no way in the world that this type of attitude is correct, and it is chaging, even within the most hardline of countries there is change beginning, but external powers, Canada, US, Germany, Italy, France, UK keep such a corrupt regime and their religious hangers on in power (Saudi). Money rules and a steady stream of oil from the region is the reason why this stupid brand of Islam is pushing along.
when you next visit Croatia, starghost, you should head back from the beaches and see what life is like in villages where women are women and sheep are scared, and maybe talk with locals other than service staff and tour guides, go speak with women's initiatives (there are precious few networks) and you will see that the traditional prejudices of southern europe are not so far removed from those in north africa and the Middle east. Like you they have problems with homosexuality, make excuses for spousal abuse (saying it happens everywhere) and possess a fear of being progressive. As with anywhere it's not blanket, but prevalent. Attacking Protestant views of Catholicism is parallel, if you can't see it, of your vitriole on Islam, you should just accept that life is life and that we need to work together, and posting under 3 guises is not progressing anything.
Croam, you're seeing it right (no pun intended) underpinning so much of Bush's policies and attitudes are the teaching of the psycho right winger christians. If I were a Jew Catholic or Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist, I'd be very scared. Yet the funny thing is, he still does his deals with Islamic hardliners and one wonders, is money a leveller? With the "restrictions" in place on muslims he and Bandar Al Saud stil enjoying sharing a nice whiskey, which is against Koranic and Old testament teachings, grain and grape and all that crack, but they have to deal with their maker and conscince.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 24, 2005 16:46:10 GMT 1
Irac, i think you are giving Bush too much credibility and intelligence, yes he is an ultra right wing Christian but he has little understanding of the world at large. However, he has a strong team around him of right wingers and intellectuals who drive his policies, of which money and the economy is paramount. I think he himself has absolutely no concept of the economy or any real insight for any religion aside of his own. I must say i am astonished with everyone jumping on this anti-muslim bandwagon we see today, especially since it was something that was created by the US and the twin-towers attacks. We speak of terrorism as if it is something that is now rife in society today and is happening everywhere, it isnt, media reports it like this to stir emotion and create scare. Islamic fundamentalism has strengthened due to US policy on oil and policy at large, i wasnt surprised in the slightest at the twin towers and was amazed that other people were. If you strip down the mass media stories and read real facts like those on www.antiwar.com you will see that muslim countries have been terribly treated by Western powers for a long time. I often read the terrible treatment of women by the islamic faith, and in no way would i ever condone this, but you will see that Saudi Arabia is allowing girls into colleges now (Although women cant vote yet) and all societies still suffer from suppresion of women, although on a different scale even women in the UK are paid substantially less than there male counterparts from the same job and Jewish religion is not that much better than Islam towards women. Just because they are islamic it does not mean they are instantly evil, why does there always have to be an arch-nemesis to democracy?. First it was communism and now the US needs a new threat it is islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 24, 2005 17:02:52 GMT 1
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