Will the ethnic groups ever truly re-integrate?

[Old Guest]

Irac, I am not some expert on religions. And I don't think "religious expertise" is necessery to understand Bosnia. And also I think that connections between any of 3 religions in region (especialy in Bosnia) with rest of "religious world" are weak. They are more in "traditional borders" and all 3 tend to show their "extreme parts" in same way.

During war, Islamic fundamentalism tried to enter Bosnia (and it did on some level), but I think it is under control of international comunuty, same as other 2 extremisms are. In Bosnia extremisms tend to change "form" under different circumstances, but most elements they pick from surrounding are "common".

It is hard ot almost impossible to compare Bosnia and it's own extremisms with rest of the world, or give some conclusions on "global level" about Bosnian Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims. But of course, there is always huge possibility for us to not see "deep enough" under surface.

But again, as much as I think international comunity is making mistakes over Bosnia, I still believe they are only solution for Bosnia to develop in modern civile society, and not turn into "safe heaven" for any of 3 extremisms. Or in worse scenarion (lets not even think about it) - safe heaven for all 3 extremisms, as result of "division" of Bosnia on 3 parts.

Bosnia is specific, and as you can find all "negative elements" you can find "good elements" in its society, just "tirany principles" (which you maybe tought I was using on global level) are very localised and nationaly/religiously claustrophobic.

Both, members of civile society and international comunity are working to solve this problem, making life for "local Sheriffs/or Sheikhs" (depends what religion they use for "excuse") more and more complicated.

But resistance is obvious, and as much it was necessery to deal with negative influences from Croatia and Serbia, also it is neccessery to deal with influences of Islam fundamentalism, and not close eyes infront of it.

As much as Bosnia is specific, it can show some path to others how to deal with such issues. Or prove that "there is no possibilty in coexsistance of religions", but I still don't believe that religion is able to "eat" esence of humans ethics, same as I really don't believe that ethic's can "switch pole" just to make politics happy.

So, Bosnia is indeed interesting, but comparation with rest of world especialy when it comes to Muslims is not possible.

And after all, if we are completly honest, indeed USA initiatives and actions stoped war in Bosnia (same as in Croatia), and made it possible for all 3 elements to start from somewhere (not mush - but better then nothing), and USA did everything for war to not start again.

Objectively and unfortunately, EU made bigger mess in Bosnia then any other international element.

[irac]

I don't understand you point og, you say that Bosnia is different from the rest of socities affected by Isamic fundamentalism, or not or weakly connected with those in the rest of the world (general religion)? So how do you explain the presence of a number of mujaheddin who are on the run in most Middle Eastern countries, yet draw in funds from wealthy Arabs? Bosnia was a training ground for many of those Al Qaeda members who were hunted down by International authorities and at last count there are still Offices operating, under different guises, that have direct links to Middle Eastern backed disruption groups (they're not terrorists or anything other than idiotic troublemakers).

To gain a real education in the region one should spend a day driving, stop off in each of the "occupied" areas and then compare notes. The Serb Republic is being kept in disarray, Sarajevo is becoming so frighteningly divided as each little group gets it's claws into it's religious group. The full covering of women in Muslim society there is now more common, especially among young educated women. Teachers chased out of Afghanistan and Pakistani madrassas have found welcome arms in Bosnia to preach their hatreds. Okay, so in Croatia there have been 4 noted incidents of priests telling their "flock" to avoid contact with orthodox citizens since November 2004.

Thanks to the stupidity of internal and external powers, fundamentalism is growing in Bosnia and further fracturing it's society.

[Old Guest]

Irac, I was talking about "civile society" in Bosnia. Islamic fundamentalism is not participating in it (I hope it doesnt). Islamic fundamentalism is "cancerous element" which is trying to use Bosnia as "jump board", and this is not some "new story" looking from Croatian perspective.

At time when it was spreading over Bosnia, it was very much ignored. Starting fight between Muslims and Croats was opportunity for it to "step inside". But at that moment it wasn't recognized as dangerous (mostly Croatia and Croats was blamed for everything, for what they should be blamed, but even for what they shouldnt), because of much different international circumstances.

I believe that international cumunity is very much aware of it's grow, and I believe and hope it is able to prevent it.

But, separating religions one from each other will just open space for Islamic fundamentalisn even more, and I believe this is exactly what they want.

I really utopisticaly don't want to believe that international comunity is unable to deal with Islamic fundamentalism in Bosnia (as you said - they are catching them, and know who they are).

But Muslims which are participating in civile society and still holds religious tradition from "pre war" times (before Arabic influences) are by my hopes not so responsive to Islamic fundamentalism.

Or I am just too blind, false optimistic and afraid to face ugly facts from my neighborhood.

[Old Guest]

But, after I read it all over again, I must agree with you.

I realised I am reacting as "brainwashed Croat", used on feeling guilty when ever Bosnia turns out to be subject. Because when Croatia was warning on Islamic fundamentalism in Bosnia, international comunity blamed it for "mixing in other country's affairs", presenting all those mujahedins and "face covered aid workers" you are talking about as "international defenders" of Bosnia and it's "civile principles", while at same time Croats who shared Bosnian history for centuries turned to be - agressors, at one point.

Well ... strange what "autocensorship" do to persons brain (in this case - average Croat). I just get used to feel "guilty" and start to "explain equality in guilts" - whever Bosnia get mentioned, even I never even visited Bosnia in my life.

[star]

irac said:

star, aetheists are devotees who will still call out god's names in times of stress, and balk when it comes to explaining the unexplained. Old guest is right when saying that all religion comes from the same ethic, love each other and live and let live. The original islamic thought, before Mohammed's 1st wife died and he was no longer a kept man, is essentially counteracting the problems and anti-female behaviour of the Jewish and Christian faiths. All three religions have been twisted and torn and perverted in order to further groups or individuals agendas, who conveniently forget that each person's religion is their own matter.

A leading Sheikh told me that all religions need to co-exist, that they need to work together in order to stamp out corruption of thought and practice. Touching the tip of his nose he told me "Your religion ends here. I respect yours and I only ask that you do the same for me." This is the same man who's amazingly bold and progressive act of remembering the last Pope in their prayers the day after his death in the Great Mosque in Mecca was almost completely unreported outside of the Middle East and Islamic states. Old guest, we'd better watch out talking too liberal or I'll be seeing you in Guantanamo!

Have you ever read the Koran? There is no way different religions can coexist with Islam, not on an equal basis anyways. The Koran calls for the complete subjugation of other abrahamic faiths and the destruction of everyone else. Moreover, there is no sense of the separation of the political and spiritual worlds in Islam. You won't find a "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, and unto God what is God's" in the Koran.

Its no coincidence that science and reason as we know it was born out of Christian Europe and no where else. Faith and Reason is the cornerstone of the Catholic Church and so in my opinion is uiquely European and Western. Islam is completely incompatible because the hadiths don't allow for any other interpretation of the Koran.

However, Islam will win in the end through attrition. Population statistics bare this out. In 3 or 4 generations they will represent the majority in France and French culture will disappear.

As for Bosnia, there was good cooperation between Moslems and Croats initially until Saudi Arabia bought off Izetbegovic and sent in the mujahadeen. Then like the Turks centuries before, they used islam to divide the people against each other. Its funny to listen to the Bosniaks refer to themselves as a separate people when most are ethnic Croats or Serbs. One guy even told me that wasn't true, that they were decendants of the "Bogomuls" who converted to Islam. I tried to explain to him that he meant the "Bogomils" which was a heretical christian movement and not a different race of people. He wouldn't accept that though, it was what he was taught since the war.

There is a concious effort by moslem authorities in Bosnia to try and differentiate themselves from the other ethnic groups so they can hold on to power.

You can check out the videos on the following site to see the mujahadeen in action in Bosnia during the war. Its a Serbian propaganda website and there are some explicit videos but I think it shows how radical Islam is more than just another religion but a socio-political movement as well:

www.rs-icty.org/glavna_galerija_video.htm

[EMIZ]

Star most of the issues you have attacked Islam with are true not only in Catholism but also Croatian society.

Star said "There is a concious effort by moslem authorities in Bosnia to try and differentiate themselves from the other ethnic groups so they can hold on to power"

If you are saying this is a negative issue, then you must aim the same attack on Croatia, I could give you numerous examples of this in Croatian, but as anaybody with a brain knows most of them, I wont waste my time.

[croam]

star: I never said i was an atheist. i was raised catholic...but am currently on hiatus while i figure things out for myself. you can call me a sinner but thats not your right or place to do so, thats God's job if your a true Christian.
I agree...i don't think the 3 religions are compatible unless they are all weak. The stronger they get the more war you will have. I'm going to try to stay on the sidelines and watch it all play out...and not pick sides unless I have to. Bad things happen when you pick sides in war.

[CroatianSerbAbroad]

Certain factors must be remembered when we talk about Islam and Bosnian Muslims. When the Yugoslav census was conducted, it was these muslims that classed themselves more as "Yugoslavs" then "Muslims". The war strengthed their views as Muslims but a vacuum existed, this vacuum was because unlike Serbs and Croats the Bosnian Muslims do not have a united history that can draw similar parallels to Croats or Serbs. The Bosnian Muslims were part of the Ottoman Empire and never previously had their own "country".

Now they find themselves in a position that they must decide what sort of muslims they are. This is very dangerous, since they will want to prove they are "true" muslims and as such may adopt an extremism to prove it.

Bosnian Muslims were on course to prove that Islam could function in a democratic and civilised country had the war not occured in Yugoslavia. The war was not the Muslims fault and had it not happened they would have been proof that the most geographically western muslims could function in such a society and coexist with Catholics and Orthodox.

I read in an earlier post that at worst Bosnia could be seperated into three states, I would disagree with this view, by equal, fair and mutually agreed seperation the states can prosper and links (economic and social) will naturally form between the peoples progressively. They would not feel that anyone is trying to force them together.

I still feel that the division in two under fair and democratic standards will become the real future of Bosnia. Why should Bosnian Muslims have the right to self determination if the Croatian Serbs or Kosovo Albanians cant have it?. The Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs dont need the right to self determination, they can join Croatia and Serbia proper and the Bosnian Muslims can become minorities, they will then naturally integrate and assimilate into these two respective countries.

[star]

Guest-EMIZ said:

Star most of the issues you have attacked Islam with are true not only in Catholism but also Croatian society.

Star said "There is a concious effort by moslem authorities in Bosnia to try and differentiate themselves from the other ethnic groups so they can hold on to power"

If you are saying this is a negative issue, then you must aim the same attack on Croatia, I could give you numerous examples of this in Croatian, but as anaybody with a brain knows most of them, I wont waste my time.

Yikes, EMIZ is back.

Islam is not compatible with western society. Western Society is the product of the Catholic Church. Thats a fact.
If you have evidence to the contrary then by all means please provide them.

[irac]

star, the catholic/christian church, has done more to hold back the progres of humanity, while cities in Europe were rotting diseased carcasses, under Islam there flourished an age of reason, pregoress, scientific investigation, large parts of which was driven by koranic teachings. The christian (pre-Catholic) church did it's utmost to destroy progress in sexual equality, education, cleanlieness, and most importantly, our understanding of the importance of God.

In all reality star yes I've read the Koran (it was pretty much required reading when you have 2 years to kill in Saudi) and discussed it with students and teachers of the subject, it is compatible with other religions, you might not know it but it was under Islam that the practice of other faiths was guaranteed. As with all other faiths extremism perverts, and sadly in Bosnia there are three faiths being wound up (to differing degrees) and led away from the path of true belief.

And product of the Catholic church? Hmm, no, not quite, the Catholic church grew over and claimed the "pagan" beliefs present before it, just as Islam hijacked pagan elements, christianity and judaism form ti's own area. All religion is good, and has it's place. Sadly when governments deliberately allow extremism to foster they are ultimately slitting the throats of their thinking citizens.

[star]

irac said:

star, the catholic/christian church, has done more to hold back the progres of humanity, while cities in Europe were rotting diseased carcasses, under Islam there flourished an age of reason, pregoress, scientific investigation, large parts of which was driven by koranic teachings. The christian (pre-Catholic) church did it's utmost to destroy progress in sexual equality, education, cleanlieness, and most importantly, our understanding of the importance of God.

In all reality star yes I've read the Koran (it was pretty much required reading when you have 2 years to kill in Saudi) and discussed it with students and teachers of the subject, it is compatible with other religions, you might not know it but it was under Islam that the practice of other faiths was guaranteed. As with all other faiths extremism perverts, and sadly in Bosnia there are three faiths being wound up (to differing degrees) and led away from the path of true belief.

And product of the Catholic church? Hmm, no, not quite, the Catholic church grew over and claimed the "pagan" beliefs present before it, just as Islam hijacked pagan elements, christianity and judaism form ti's own area. All religion is good, and has it's place. Sadly when governments deliberately allow extremism to foster they are ultimately slitting the throats of their thinking citizens.

Irac, that has got to be the biggest load of crap I had ever read in my entire life. I can tell you had only read enlightenment propaganda. Anyone who had really studied medieval history would laugh at your post. This is why the world is turning more conservative. The secularists just make themselves look foolish by writing obvious falsehoods which is a shame because there is no need to do so.

Go read the writings of Aquinas, Adelard of Bath, Robert Grossesteste, Roger Bacon or Bernadine of Sienna. The nucleus of Western Civilization lies in the writings of these and other medieval clerics.

As I've said before. Islam only tolerates other religions if they are subordinate to them. The economic pressures of the jizia tax on nonbelievers and living as second class citizens ensures the eventual conversion of the populace to Islam. And thats only if you are of an Abrahamic faith. God help you if you are a hindu. No option of paying the tax then, just convert or die.

[Ribaric]

I wonder if we, those of us on this thread, could get along. I see a catholic (star), a catholic taking a breather (croam), a (probable) former catholic (irac), an orthodox (CroSerb) and an athiest (me). My apologies if I'm wrong or you take offense, my motives are honest and I mean no harm.

Any muslims want to join in this?

If we were all neighbours in a small town/village, what would cause us to foster mis-trust and, ultimately, partake in aggressive behaviour between ourselves?

Religion? Provocation? Press stories of terrible acts by the "other lot"? Wealth/poverty/envy?

Are we going to say "not us, we're far too civilised and educated - it's all those other people"?

Which of us would cast the first stone?

[irac]

not former Ribaric, but I don't see any probelms with others practicing their own faiths.

Star, you are so bitter about other faiths, you should just try talking with those of Islamic faith and try to understand that at the base of every faith/religion is goodness and love, but of course they get perverted by those with agendas, money and power. The disgrace that has become the Catholic Church, the abomination that is the propagated Wahabbism and the ignorance promoted by certain areas of the oRthodox faith just push them further away from the true teachings.

Certainly those you mentioned were enlightened, in senses, in their thought, but how were they treated by their contemporaries? How are they looked upon by theologians? STar, you should try to make points without insult or aggression, as it lessens the impact of your point, not adding emphasis as you try. If you have full security in your beliefs then ther is no need.

[star]

irac said:

not former Ribaric, but I don't see any probelms with others practicing their own faiths.

Neither do I, as long as the customs and laws of the land are respected.

Star, you are so bitter about other faiths, you should just try talking with those of Islamic faith and try to understand that at the base of every faith/religion is goodness and love, but of course they get perverted by those with agendas, money and power. The disgrace that has become the Catholic Church, the abomination that is the propagated Wahabbism and the ignorance promoted by certain areas of the oRthodox faith just push them further away from the true teachings.

I'm not bitter with other faiths except that of Islamic fundamentalism which I admit. The only true abomination is unrestrained secularism. It will be the end of Western Civilization. The writing is on the wall but many people don't see it. The French government has recognized this which is why they tried to ban Islamic headscarves in school in an attempt to secularize muslim children. It will fail.

Certainly those you mentioned were enlightened, in senses, in their thought, but how were they treated by their contemporaries? How are they looked upon by theologians?

They were theologians themselves obviously. And just like in academic circles today, they all had their detractors and supporters. The issues were debated and eventually things become accepted. Some like Aquinas go on to become saints and doctors of the Church.

Robert Grossesteste, the bishop of Lincoln, was one of the most respected individuals of the time. He wrote "On the inductive scientific method" around the year 1230.

STar, you should try to make points without insult or aggression, as it lessens the impact of your point, not adding emphasis as you try. If you have full security in your beliefs then ther is no need.

I don't believe I insulted anyone but if my posts are aggressive then I apologize. It just frustrates me to no end when I keep reading myths from the enlightement. People accept things like "everyone in the middle ages thought the world was flat until Columbus" at face value. They don't realize that many of these things were fabricated in the the 18th century out of a political agenda. But fortunately the tide seems to be turning in the universities today. My medieval society prof had nothing but disdain for enlightment nonsense.

[CroatianSerbAbroad]

I sometimes feel that the depths of our arguements sometime mean we miss the point. I dont believe you can brand all muslims in the same light, yes they share a common religion but their are other values that impact - prosperity adn culture come to mind.

If we get to the original point of the thread are we saying that any co-existence in Bosnia is impossible and if so how was it that it has happened in pockets throughout history and most recently between 1945 and 1992?

Are we actually saying that Yugoslavia did actually work in Bosnia for that period of time? I know its popular to be anti-communist but surely certain aspects did work during that time.