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Post by Vjeko on Jun 1, 2005 1:52:27 GMT 1
I just thought I would reply to one of the first comments made stating that we should act like victims. Why not. Look what the Jews have done. They are the most powerful people in the world now just because they were victims. Victims act like victims. It's normal.
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croam
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Post by croam on Jun 1, 2005 2:52:26 GMT 1
no matter what the ustashe did, they deserved a trial...and the fact that there are women's and children's bones only adds to the suspicous nature of the death marches. The US is giving Saddam Husein a criminal trial...we could have shot him and said it was self defence. You retards want Gotovina...why don't you kill him instead? Why? Because you think your so civilized. Well where's your civility when it comes to hundreds of thousands of deaths??? If they were so guilty why didn't they get a trial, because you didn't have any evidence maybe? Can you see why Bleiburg is so important? Do you think mass graves are cool if its your side and you think your right? Your just as bad as the people who put others in mass graves. Congrats.
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Post by TipratTiprat on Jun 1, 2005 3:36:13 GMT 1
7% of Croatia population was wiped out in 2 weeks, why don’t England and the Serbs apologise for that? Makes whatever the Ustashi done pretty dam small. Why doesn’t England apologise for the British empire? Why doesn’t England apologise for Northern Island? Why doesn’t England apologise for Arabs suffering in Palestine
And you want us to forgive and just move on?....just like England has forgiven Germany any moved on??
The list goes on and on and on 7% of Croatia population was wiped out in 2 weeks where is our trial?....where is our aplogys?
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Post by star on Jun 1, 2005 3:42:24 GMT 1
I just thought I would reply to one of the first comments made stating that we should act like victims. Why not. Look what the Jews have done. They are the most powerful people in the world now just because they were victims. Victims act like victims. It's normal. Yes but no one is going to feel sorry for the ustashe. I don't mean to be callous, but thats just a fact. Everyone is a victim at one time or another but most people move on with their lives. Jews value education, have good business sense and tend to help each other out. Can't fault them for that. Croats on the other hand, when they're not fighting someone else, they're fighting each other. Thats my own personal observation.
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Post by GhostWriter on Jun 1, 2005 4:17:58 GMT 1
I just thought I would reply to one of the first comments made stating that we should act like victims. Why not. Look what the Jews have done. They are the most powerful people in the world now just because they were victims. Victims act like victims. It's normal. Yes but no one is going to feel sorry for the ustashe. I don't mean to be callous, but thats just a fact. Everyone is a victim at one time or another but most people move on with their lives. Jews value education, have good business sense and tend to help each other out. Can't fault them for that. Croats on the other hand, when they're not fighting someone else, they're fighting each other. Thats my own personal observation. Jew are just like any other people..... Do not Croatians value education? Do not Croatians have good business sense? Don't Croatians help each other out? Jews have just as much IN fighting actually probably more fighting amongst each other than Croatians. There are different types of Jews and they don't all get along. Talk about fighting with others.... has there ever been a peaceful day in Israel/Palestine. I find that comment about jews to be so sterotypical and I find that astonshing that would come from (you) Star of all people who post here. Jews are pretty much like any other people. Good & Bad
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Post by Glen on Jun 1, 2005 4:22:45 GMT 1
I cant believe you bastards, you have killed more people than Croats ever did and you still act all high and mighty. Croats should apologise for NOTHING you poms gave the order to turn them away when they surrendered to you - you are so proud of your history maybe you should do some research as to what happened. You say "oh get over it" well why dont you tell the jews to get over it too - the best thing you ever did was kick us out of england and send us to Australia, i am ashamed to have come from England
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Post by TheDemocrat on Jun 1, 2005 4:27:59 GMT 1
Why is it fashionable and acceptable these days to speak of communism and support it, have unions, wear pictures of communist leaders, celebrate them but at the same time it is wrong to even mention a facist regime, or leader - ban facist emblems etc..... communism is left wing, facism, right wing.... both systems have slaughtered millions throughout history... why is it ok for partisans to wear a red star and celebrate and wrong for a right winger to support the Ustasa... i dont seem to understand
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Post by star on Jun 1, 2005 4:53:24 GMT 1
Yes but no one is going to feel sorry for the ustashe. I don't mean to be callous, but thats just a fact. Everyone is a victim at one time or another but most people move on with their lives. Jews value education, have good business sense and tend to help each other out. Can't fault them for that. Croats on the other hand, when they're not fighting someone else, they're fighting each other. Thats my own personal observation. Jew are just like any other people..... Do not Croatians value education? Do not Croatians have good business sense? Don't Croatians help each other out? Jews have just as much IN fighting actually probably more fighting amongst each other than Croatians. There are different types of Jews and they don't all get along. Talk about fighting with others.... has there ever been a peaceful day in Israel/Palestine. I find that comment about jews to be so sterotypical and I find that astonshing that would come from (you) Star of all people who post here. Jews are pretty much like any other people. Good & Bad I only call it as I see it in my own community and I was generalizing obviously. Of course Croatians do all that, everyone does. But some people do it better. And before anyone accuses me of anything, I would like to reitterate that I am very sympathetic to the issue of forced repatriations. My great uncle was sent to one of Stalin's gulags. Its one of those things both the political right and left don't want to touch with a ten foot pole. Conservative governments enacted the policy and leftists carried it out. It implicates them both which is why neither want to bring it up. That being said, it still irritates me when people live in the past. When we say "get over it" we're not trying to be rude but trying to get them to join the modern world. How many wars have england and france fought against each other over the centuries? There's still the rivalry, but they get on with business and don't let the past get in the way. Any country which does otherwise will inevitably end up in the third world ghetto.
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Post by Robri on Jun 1, 2005 5:52:15 GMT 1
Croatia is getting on with busness aswell, it is investing in Bosnia & Serbia also, close to normal economic & political relations exist with both.....but remember, the war was only 10 years ago. Also, this is not living in the past, this topic commenced as a result of the recent commemoration of the bleiburg massacre, the same way Europe commemorated the end of world war 2 at the same time.....Some of you people are so hell bent on throwing accusations at Croatia, the motivation to denigrate this nation with such vigor I find quite suspicious? Croatians did not elect Nazi’s to lead them throughout the war, nor did they agree with the crimes that were being commited under the direction of the Nazi Germany. To the person who says that even they were shocked at Ustashe Crimes, you are wrong aswell. Himmler visited Zagreb during the war for the sole purpose to advise that not enough was being done in that regard. If the leader of the time did not do as was required from the axis powers, he would have been removed & someone else installed to carry out the dirty work. Coratia had no choice but to attempt to ensure its survival, the alternative was to join the allies & forsake its territory to its expansionist neighbours…being Italy & Serbia. It is important to point out at this time that one of the earliest anti fascist uprisings commenced in Croatia…The coastal areas had to fight off the axis powers to fight off fascist Italy, the remainder had to fight off the allies to prevent being thrown into the hell that was Yugoslavia between the wars….
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Post by star on Jun 1, 2005 6:28:04 GMT 1
That's good to hear Robri. Your post shows the different perspectives of the various sides which I appreciate. In the west, things are usually seen in black and white, good and evil. A yank may accuse the ukrainian of collaborating with the nazis whereas he may say he was simply fighting the communists just as the yanks did later on. As I said, many causes are taken up by the right or the left in order to beat each other over the head. But forced repatriation is a subject no one wants to touch. Probably another reason why I find it so fascinating. Very few people here want to denigrate Croatia. There is criticism that's not very constructive I admit but most people wan't to see Croatia do well. Remember, people only argue about the bad things. That doesn't mean there are not alot of good things too.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Jun 1, 2005 12:06:13 GMT 1
Is it me or is this thread rapidly deteriorating?
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croam
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Post by croam on Jun 1, 2005 16:03:48 GMT 1
croatianserb: you made some good points...but i disagree about the Ustashe being put in place by Germany. Ustashe existed before Germany...they were far right nationalists....they didn't have an army untill germany intervened, and I agree it was a very small group of croatians....so it only furthers the argument that bleiburg was a massacre if you consider even the lowest numbers(200-250,000 dead in mass graves) because at their peak there were only about 50-75,000 Ustashe, so who were the others??? Also, they were not very centrally organized...and circumstances varied greatly region to region, town to town in former Jugo, so yes its unfair to say all croatians backed them and what they did. I also think that Ustashe and Partizans were manipulated by different forces, just like they were in 90s....so yeah maybe Tito's partizans thought they were fighting for croatia, but they were brainwashed and ended up fighting for Jugoslavia. Regardless, the whole point of the thread was remembering Bleiburg. Justifying Bleiburg is like justifying any other holocaust or slaughter...but as we all know the winners get to right the history and Croatia lost that war, and the serbs still propagandize things to this day....but what do you expect? They lived in Yugo for so long...the mecca of propaganda.
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Post by GhostWriter on Jun 1, 2005 17:03:48 GMT 1
Croatia is getting on with busness aswell, it is investing in Bosnia & Serbia also, close to normal economic & political relations exist with both.....but remember, the war was only 10 years ago. Also, this is not living in the past, this topic commenced as a result of the recent commemoration of the bleiburg massacre, the same way Europe commemorated the end of world war 2 at the same time.....Some of you people are so hell bent on throwing accusations at Croatia, the motivation to denigrate this nation with such vigor I find quite suspicious? Croatians did not elect Nazi’s to lead them throughout the war, nor did they agree with the crimes that were being commited under the direction of the Nazi Germany. To the person who says that even they were shocked at Ustashe Crimes, you are wrong aswell. Himmler visited Zagreb during the war for the sole purpose to advise that not enough was being done in that regard. If the leader of the time did not do as was required from the axis powers, he would have been removed & someone else installed to carry out the dirty work. Coratia had no choice but to attempt to ensure its survival, the alternative was to join the allies & forsake its territory to its expansionist neighbours…being Italy & Serbia. It is important to point out at this time that one of the earliest anti fascist uprisings commenced in Croatia…The coastal areas had to fight off the axis powers to fight off fascist Italy, the remainder had to fight off the allies to prevent being thrown into the hell that was Yugoslavia between the wars…. I said the same exact thing a while back on another thread..... You should have seen it.... They jumped all over me like I was a nazi lover and said that we did choose sides.... I explained there was not really a choice.....ooooh but the rest of the posters were angry and said there was a choice.... I agree with you.... finally someone with some balls to say what I said a long time ago. Maybe you will have them all jumping all over your post too!
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Post by GhostWriter on Jun 1, 2005 17:55:14 GMT 1
. Regardless, the whole point of the thread was remembering Bleiburg. Justifying Bleiburg is like justifying any other holocaust or slaughter...but as we all know the winners get to right the history and Croatia lost that war, and the serbs still propagandize things to this day....but what do you expect? They lived in Yugo for so long...the mecca of propaganda. Ohh Croam you are going to piss people off with this one.... They don't believe that Yugo brainwashed their youth with their Serbian version of the war. A lot of the youth of yesterday were raised with propaganda. You have some Croatians that have no idea of their history what they know is what Yugo taught them. Others had parents to remind them of the real truth not Yugo truth. The world has been brainwashed by Yugo propaganda. What was said and done then is still showing up in school books around the world. Croatians as the evil villians all are Ustasha. Some history books I have seen have had the most inaccurate crap I have ever seen but they keep publishing the same thing over and over. People are lazy and will not investigate or read outside of what some schools require for history education. Like I say "Don't be a sheep". Dig a little and you will be surprised in what you find.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Jun 1, 2005 20:50:44 GMT 1
Croam, the Ustashe did exist before WWII, i said they were an installed puppet government because they were. When Yugoslav forces withdrew to the boundaries of Serbia they left a huge vacuum for Pavelic to come back from Italy and become the leader of NDH. Pavelic and the Ustashe were in effect terrorists prior to WWII, you are right to say they had no army but they had followers and were working closely with Macedonian nationalists.
I cannot comment on Bleiburg because i know nothing about it, but you need to understand one thing and this is that the Ustashe did indeed lose the war along with Nazi Germany and because of this no matter what is said the whole world will spin against the Ustashe. Regardless of what is true and what is not, it is not just the serbs that will protect the current scenario but all Europeans and Jews so no point in blaming Serbs or Yugoslavia.
Trying to fight this is only further damaging for Croatia, the truth has no part to play in this. Sorry but the world is not a fair place and you will never convince anyone but Croatians about Bleiburg. Personally i dont care what happened 60 years ago. My own feeling is that there is far too much emphasis about things that happened 60 years ago, we need to talk about what is going to be of Croatia 60 years from now, that is my bigger concern.
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