croam
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Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Jun 1, 2005 23:50:19 GMT 1
i agree about living in the present...its the only way to proceed...but its other people who keep bringing it up not me...and i will stop and just say "get over it" whenever anyone mentions ustashe and nazis. People think what they want to anyway...no amount of convincing can change that.
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Post by GhostWriter on Jun 2, 2005 19:47:32 GMT 1
Croam, the Ustashe did exist before WWII, i said they were an installed puppet government because they were. When Yugoslav forces withdrew to the boundaries of Serbia they left a huge vacuum for Pavelic to come back from Italy and become the leader of NDH. Pavelic and the Ustashe were in effect terrorists prior to WWII, you are right to say they had no army but they had followers and were working closely with Macedonian nationalists. I cannot comment on Bleiburg because i know nothing about it, but you need to understand one thing and this is that the Ustashe did indeed lose the war along with Nazi Germany and because of this no matter what is said the whole world will spin against the Ustashe. Regardless of what is true and what is not, it is not just the serbs that will protect the current scenario but all Europeans and Jews so no point in blaming Serbs or Yugoslavia. Trying to fight this is only further damaging for Croatia, the truth has no part to play in this. Sorry but the world is not a fair place and you will never convince anyone but Croatians about Bleiburg. Personally i dont care what happened 60 years ago. My own feeling is that there is far too much emphasis about things that happened 60 years ago, we need to talk about what is going to be of Croatia 60 years from now, that is my bigger concern. www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/yugoslav-hist1.htmFor someone that says that they are open and care so much about Croatia.......I find it astonishing that you would be ignorant of the Death Marches (BBurg)..... If you care so much about Croatia than I think it would benefit you to know as much about Croatia & its people as possible. Also your attitude that Croatians should not fight this that it is damaging to Croatia & the truth has no part in this....IS RIDICULOUS & Dangerous. Everyone should strive for the truth... no matter how small. The attitude that you have is what caused alot of the worlds problems in the first place.... Germans and their concentration camps..... people closed their eyes to the truth!!!! When people finally opened their eyes to the truth they had a full blown mess on their hands. If what happaned in history long ago was not so important why then, do say English children learn about ww2 and churchhill and how Britian were such great people during the war. What you are saying is what happened 60 years ago is not important. Lets just not teach the children of the world about history.... What is it only important when it effects the majority?.... not the minority.... so what if a few Croatians died in ww2 should that be the thinking? Should ONLY the English/American version of the war be taught to the world..... I say NO... I want to hear from everyone and everywhere all versions of the war. There is always 2 sides to a story... in this case several sides. Basically telling Croatians to hush up about their history is ridiculous.... The more we talk about it, the more the myths and lies will be wiped out.... Years of propaganda & lies that have become reality to many, will finally be revealed to be lies... talking about things brings light & truth to the situtation. I think Croatians should talk about it.... the more talk the better! The more education and knowledge from every source the better. I also think Croatians should make monuments for the people killed in Croatia (Jews, Gypsy, Serb, homosexuals ),anyone that was a victim of the war. I also think there should be monuments put up for the Croatians killed in the death marches, also for Croatian hero's.
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Post by 3lions on Jun 2, 2005 21:50:45 GMT 1
if any country in the world should look to the future it should be Croatia, can't see the point of digging up old hatred.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Jun 2, 2005 23:40:49 GMT 1
GhostWriter you point is very emotive, because it is emotive you are putting words in my mouth.
I am using a subjective viewpoint to my arguement, what i mean by this is you are jumping to responses for questions i have not asked. At no point did i mention that Croatia should not talk about the truth about Bleiburg, what i did say is that this persective is damaging to Croatia in the eyes of the world and without doubt it will be. This is because you are one country fighting the whole of Europe and Israel in the definition of WWII.
You will also see that i am not saying what is the truth and what is not, because i am not in a position to comment on this. With respect GhostWriter, my knowledge of Croatian history will be far greater in detail and depth than yours, however I have never shown any real interest in the fascist history of Ustashe or Chetniks.
You look at Croatia's history prior to WWII and you will see a strong, honourable history and here we are discussing yet again the most negative part of that history, well i am sorry but i wont and i wont argue against or in favour of Bleiburg.
In terms of england and english history, i have a friend who is a history teacher and i know for a fact that they are not taught about WWII or Churchill, sorry to shatter that illusion!
I would strongly recommend you re-read my last post and then read your response and then you will see just how much of a tangent you went off on and how emotive your response is. Your post shows a desire to put forward points against questions/opinions that were never presented.
And we do need to look forward regardless, rather than spending lots of money on monuments why dont we use that money to give aid to the people than need it in Croatia? - come on lets look forward and onward.
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Jun 2, 2005 23:58:36 GMT 1
i think the reason why croats want to talk about it is because it was forbidden to talk about and suppressed for 60 years and many lost family members there. I also think that talking about it is not going to help Croatia's image. I don't think its right that the Truth would hurt Croatia, but in reality, I agree with CroSerb that you will never get sympathy from people once they realize that even one Ustashe was in that group. I don't think its right, but i think thats the stark truth. I think for Croats in Croatia they should talk about it if they want to...I just didn't get the feeling that they did. I brought it up to one guy because it was in the paper that day and it was the anniversary and i think he thought i was a little crazy. Maybe the Udba came after him when he was little or something for misbehaving on the playground. Regardless, I'm starting to realize that the diaspora are much more nationalistic then croats in Croatia. I don't know if thats because there were alot in the party or what...but i guess thats because people are too busy trying to make ends meet to have time to deconstruct the last hundred years on their laptops. Take Care....No hard feelings. ;D
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Post by GhostWriter on Jun 3, 2005 8:06:06 GMT 1
Cro/Serb.... I am sorry but what you posted is what you posted and you can't change what you said or change the meaning of what you said..... YOU SAID IT... I did not put words in your mouth... maybe you should read what you posted again..... These are your words.... "Trying to fight this is only further damaging for Croatia, the truth has no part to play in this" I read your post and I did not misunderstand that line! Maybe you should not have posted it if you don't believe it or you don't mean what you say..... Also you want to say your knowledge of history is better than mine, maybe it is, maybe it is not, I don't know...... But it does look pretty d**n bad when you do not know about Bleiburg and did not even read about it to find out what it is all about..... that to me is ignorant not to research something and not know about something in history and to completely not acknowledge something even happened in history..... So basically you are picking and choosing what parts of history you want to learn.... it sounds like you are favoring Serbian/Yugo history... and not your supposedly Croatian (hertiage) history. It also sounds like you don't want to find out the truth..... You also said this.... which I do not agree with ........."And we do need to look forward regardless, rather than spending lots of money on monuments why dont we use that money to give aid to the people than need it in Croatia? ." I think Croatians don't need handouts... they need jobs... not welfare. Also once the country is prospering we need to add monuments.... and more museams & cultural centers... like Belgium( I say Belgium because they have such a diverse aray of cultural activities and lots of histroical attributes for such a small country) and other countries.... We need to keep up with the rest of europe.... We want to look like we are a country with class & culture and that we can keep up with the best in the world. I think we can with time & new government. We have beautiful country and we should add to it's allure. Handing out money to poor Croatians is not the answer... Jobs, lower taxs, getting people on their feet is the answer not handouts... that only keeps people dependent on free money and we will never be motivated to get our asses out of the cafe's if we are given aid. The only people that should be getting aid are the old, disabled, mentally disabled. If you don't like what I post maybe you should be more careful about what you post.
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Post by EMIZ on Jun 3, 2005 10:54:47 GMT 1
u2 once again...I have a question for you.....how and when will Croatia prosper, I sometimes get the impression that you feel there is a magic wand that will currently change the situation here.
Let's not argue on this one, I am generally interested in how you feel things will change.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Jun 3, 2005 14:19:50 GMT 1
GhostWriter, you are obviously not coming at the same angle as me on this one. Yes i did say "the truth has no part to play in this!" and why did i say it?, because as i mentioned on my last post you have every European country and Israel demonising (Rightly or wrongly!) the Ustashe and as such you will get no recognition, sympathy or apologies for Bleiburg - FACT!. This is why the truth has no part to play in this.
Secondly, yes it is damaging for Croatia for the above reason, the rest of Europe, Israel and most of the world will see you as trying to support a fascist regime, again regardless of truth - FACT!.
Sorry if this is blunt but it needs to be recognised, i am not saying that you should not put forward what you see as the truth but dont expect anything in return from 99% of the planet, because i am sorry but you wont regret it. And before you start your pro-serb garbage about me, i am talking subjectively, this is not my viewpoint but if you look at it as neither a serb nor a croat but as an average Jo you will see what I mean.
The other aspect is that you have an obvious anti-serb bias!, I do know my history and maybe i am ignorant for not looking at Bleiburg but i am a busy business man and i do not spend all day reading history books. What i havent read i refuse to comment on such as Bleiburg.
It is also easy to say Croatians do not need handouts but it is easy for you to say that, you have a PC and an internet connection and i will bet you have food and a good standard of living, not everyone has that in Croatia and i am sorry if it hurts your feelings that i should put that people need help but they do. It is a two pronged process - of course you need jobs but you also need to support those hungry.
In terms of keeping pace with other countries such as Belgium, i am afraid Croatia needs to catch up with them first. Also the country should be reflective of the society, we need to become more dynamic as a people and then the country will reflect this. Presenting this face first is simply an empty shell that will lead to nothing.
I am not going to argue and turn into another Hram with this, i have made my point and I do not regret any of it.
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