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Post by mambo on Mar 12, 2007 18:19:28 GMT 1
I know there are some people on this forum who think that the Karin sea will be the new deal, but passing by there this weekend I cannot help and wonder what should be so beautiful about this place.
The only thing I see over there is a uncontrolled and unregulated building frenzy, one big building pit on one side of the road and on the other side (the old villages) we still see one ruin after another, nothing cleaned up, big piles of rubble everywhere etc.
Is this the idea of working on tourist development ?
I have seen this place regularly during the last 10 years and to be honest.......it has not improved, it has taken a turn for the worse.
If the Karin Sea ever wants to become a tourist destination they really have to start organizing things, plan a decent development, destroy and take out the ruins of the old houses, do some landscaping, bring in some life into those towns. Now it is just a collection of houses, apartment buildings and not even my old shoes would ever want to spend one day in that region, let alone a whole holiday. The Karin Sea is starting to look like Vir and Vir is the show piece how it should not be done.
If the real estate agents on this forum, who sell property over there, have a heart for what they do they should start talking about long term development and not just short term profit.
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Post by irac on Mar 12, 2007 20:01:03 GMT 1
Mambo, you'll get a tongue lashing along the lines of: we contribute to the local economy (pretty much true - in terms of reconstruction, construction jobs etc), we're here for the long haul, and it's beautiful and you know nothing.
The area is nice, but not exactly breathtaking (say like Makarska - and that isn't pun on air pollution). It's not the cleanest, warmest or most sought after, but if people like it then it can't be all bad. But buyers aren't stupid, once they go there, look around and get a feel for the place, they'll know if it's for them or not.
There is a fair amount of unattractive elements there and I dont know if our guys carry property ther, or near there (eg Benkovac) anymore, but it is up to local officials to take a hand rather than a bribe.
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Post by Carol on Mar 12, 2007 21:43:23 GMT 1
Ok... i don't sell property on the karin sea and its possible i've never been there (certainly I can't remember ever seeing it). However, I don't understand why you think poor area planning is something that estate agents can do something about? In Croatia estate agents have no influence whatsoever over how a town gets planned out, so its not a case of whether they are socially and environmentally responsible or not: they just simply are no influence there. Do estate agents have responsibility for town planning in the Netherlands?
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Post by mambo on Mar 13, 2007 0:34:39 GMT 1
Carol,
How can you e.g. do more about proper planning in a city/village ?
Well, perhaps soon all real estate agents have to follow a six month course if they want to be able to open up (or keep their existing agency open) a real estate agency. I hope it is not going to be a type of course which will still enable every lunatic to open up an agency. At least this will start some sort of regulation, which will give agents the opportunity to set standards.
I know that 90 % will still be driven by the quick buck, which will probably prevent them from doing something about planning and it will probably result in Spanish and Turkish style 'villages', where in the end nobody wants to live or own anything. How can you force regulation ? Not so impossible as it might seem. Simply refuse to sell anything in a village where there is no planning whatsoever. Work together with developers and get them to understand that for the value of the property it is necessary to think long term and not short term.
And for that so called 'interest' of the buyers ?
BS, many buyers simply think it is still a good deal, they believe the stories of the agents that they should buy now, for this is the moment, in a few years they will be too late and now they can still make a good profit. I compare this with the BS that tourist all over the world have to listen to (and fall for) when they are drawn into the timesharing scheme. The first few years it is not bad, but after 10 years having to go on holiday during the same period, with limited choice and rising cost, most of the owners are not so happy anymore.
If everybody is going to say 'I cannot do anything about it' and 'this is what tourists want' then for sure nothing is going to change and we will ruin a nice country, but at least we have our pockets full of money and in the end...............that is all that counts, isn't it ?
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Post by mambo on Mar 13, 2007 0:42:26 GMT 1
Irac,
If you think that the Karin sea is so beautiful at this moment, perhaps you can explain me the beauty a bit, because apparently I fail to see it.
Can you please clarify what is so beautiful about a big building pit, accompanied by old ruins of shot up houses, dirt roads and no life whatsoever ?
I think I know what is so beautiful about it..................ignorant tourists who buy houses against overinflated prices, that is what is beautiful.
What would I call acceptable ?
The area around Primosten or near Korcula city.
What is unacceptable ?
Karin Sea, island of Vir, island of Pag north of Novalja, coast from Split to Omis etc.
Don't forget....you can only destroy a coastline once, there is no second chance.
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Post by irac on Mar 13, 2007 7:19:42 GMT 1
Mambo, it might just be possible that you didn't read my post properly, I said the area is nice, so it might be as well that you read it again.
Primosten is a hell in summer and not the cleanest spot on the coast, water purity (as argued over at the last Zupanija meeting) is not great and there are more than 400 illegal buildings on the coast and a further 1,100 int he hinterland (eg Burni), so you might have ot scrutinise that a little further.
I believe that agencies can do a lot to help, but as soon as one takes an ehtical line, there will be a shark there to pick up the slack.
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Post by mambo on Mar 13, 2007 12:18:18 GMT 1
Irac,
Primosten itself is a very nice city, lots of things to do for the tourists, perhaps some illegal buildings, but not nearly as bad as Rogoznica and definitely not like Vir or Karin Sea, it is not built like a bunch of houses fell out of the sky.
If the goverment is serious about the new regulations for real estate agents it does mean that the less serious 'jokers' will be forced out soon. They will not go through the effort of a six month course, but since everything is for sale in this country it would not surprise me if that whole certificate can be bought for 6000 Kuna.
And in all honesty, I would not be able to go with a tourist to Karin Sea, Vir, Cervar etc and tell them that it is a beautiful spot, that it is all in development, but that they have to look at the long term prospects and all that kind of BS. In other words if I sell something I have to believe in it myself and otherwise I won't sell it. A quick buck is nice, but there is something as reputation, honesty and value for money. Karin Sea does absolutely not qualify for any of those categories.
In fact, I have some understanding for the agents who simply admit that they are pushing that area (and others like it) only for the big money which is involved. At least they are honest about it. I cannot admire the agents who come up with BS in order to make people believe that they are different, but that they have to do it for otherwise their competitors will do it. If you don't want to do it, you don't, it is as simple as that.
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Post by irac on Mar 13, 2007 12:45:20 GMT 1
But you still haven't realised that I never said it was beautiful. (Karin)
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Post by mambo on Mar 13, 2007 12:59:39 GMT 1
You are right, indeed you did not say it was beautiful, it was nice, but I even tend to disagree with that. It could be one of the most beautiful spots in Croatia, everything (nature wise) is in place to make something of it, but unfortunately the place is being destroyed as we speak.
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Post by capio on Mar 13, 2007 18:55:42 GMT 1
Primosten is great, I used to stay 15 miles from there often so would spent plenty of days and nights there. I love the restaurant that has wooden floorboards directly above the sea.
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Post by mark2 on Mar 13, 2007 20:58:57 GMT 1
I know there are some people on this forum who think that the Karin sea will be the new deal, but passing by there this weekend I cannot help and wonder what should be so beautiful about this place. The only thing I see over there is a uncontrolled and unregulated building frenzy, one big building pit on one side of the road and on the other side (the old villages) we still see one ruin after another, nothing cleaned up, big piles of rubble everywhere etc. Is this the idea of working on tourist development ? I have seen this place regularly during the last 10 years and to be honest.......it has not improved, it has taken a turn for the worse. If the Karin Sea ever wants to become a tourist destination they really have to start organizing things, plan a decent development, destroy and take out the ruins of the old houses, do some landscaping, bring in some life into those towns. Now it is just a collection of houses, apartment buildings and not even my old shoes would ever want to spend one day in that region, let alone a whole holiday. The Karin Sea is starting to look like Vir and Vir is the show piece how it should not be done. If the real estate agents on this forum, who sell property over there, have a heart for what they do they should start talking about long term development and not just short term profit. My oh My! I expect you have all been awaiting my reply since firstly, I run the only internet agency in the Karin Sea area. May I start by saying that I have never read such an ignorant, infactual lot of tripe in many years. A) Quote " The only thing I see over there is a uncontrolled and unregulated building frenzy, one big building pit on one side of the road and on the other side (the old villages) we still see one ruin after another, nothing cleaned up, big piles of rubble everywhere etc." The "big building pit" on one side of the road is a government funded and architect designed housing estate, prdominantly for defenders of the homeland war and their families. The land and materials were donated by the government and these families had to pay for the construction, this project has risen from a rough terrain to a housing complex of 105 houses within 2 years, the majority of the properties are now occupied and the people are starting to landscape their gardens and construct the communal park. Progress may be a little slow because many of them live on their war pensions and can only do the work when funds permit. The "building pit" on the other side of the road, is exactly that! Hundreds of formerly derelict, war-torn or unfinished houses, which have recently been purchased by (mostly affluent)Croatians, English, Swiss, Austrians, French, Germans, Slovenians, Scandinavians, Dutch etc etc, I apologise for their mess but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. B- Quote "I have seen this place regularly during the last 10 years and to be honest.......it has not improved, it has taken a turn for the worse. " ;D This comment almost does not warrant a response, but I shall oblige. Last year the optic fibre phonelines were connected and now in operation, the new electricity supplies are in place and activated, asphalting of all roads is set to commence this year, today I counted 14 houses out of 30, on one street alone, which are currently being completed. Many others are already complete. When I bought my semi-derelict house, just over two years ago, our main road was a dirt track, now tarmacced, but I saw the potential of the Karin Sea, it's undisturbed nature, olive groves along the banks of a perfectly clean sea and lack of gaudily painted hotels and apartment blocks (unlike much of the Croatian coast) The idea of a tourist industry is not foremost in the minds of homeowners on the Karin Sea, it is to develop a peaceful and beautiful haven to enjoy their holidays and weekends. To compare the Karin Sea with Vir is laughable.
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Post by mark2 on Mar 13, 2007 23:07:55 GMT 1
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Post by mambo on Mar 14, 2007 2:02:13 GMT 1
I will probably be there again in about a month. Just for the fun of it I will take a few pictures of what that so called beauty is all about. Perhaps that will ease up the discussion. To me I don't care who owns the building pit and what it is all about. Whatever and however you want to look at it, it remains a complete building frenzy, unregulated, amidst the remains of what was once.
Fiber optic lines are nice, you can also find them in a place like Rogoznica or in Cervar, but that does not imply decent city planning. What I mean with taking a turn for the worse is that the deserted villages had reached a state which was like a Status Quo. The war was over and it stayed like it was. Now the destruction continues again and this when the mess from the first destruction still is not cleaned up.
I understand that real estate agents, developers etc want to make people believe that this place will look like heaven on earth in a few years time. With correct regulation, with a lot of effort and planning it could be possible, but being in Croatia it is almost wishing like Koln and Aken were built on one day.
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Post by mark2 on Mar 14, 2007 13:35:12 GMT 1
Quote:“I will probably be there again in about a month. Just for the fun of it I will take a few pictures of what that so called beauty is all about. Perhaps that will ease up the discussion. “ Feel free to do so, while you are at it can a recommend you photograph the post office and adjoing shops. The flower beds are bereft of any vegetation and desperately need painted. The bins opposite are inadequate in number, especially in the summer months. The graffiti by the school is an eyesore also. If you would be so kind as to photograph these places, I will forward them to the town council and community Udruga.“To me I don't care who owns the building pit and what it is all about. Whatever and however you want to look at it, it remains a complete building frenzy, unregulated, amidst the remains of what was once. “ An ignorant comment from an uneducated mind! The construction of the housing estate is approximately one kilometer from the sea and has been constructed under strict government supervision, the owners are not allowed to sell for ten years. “Fiber optic lines are nice, you can also find them in a place like Rogoznica or in Cervar, but that does not imply decent city planning. What I mean with taking a turn for the worse is that the deserted villages had reached a state which was like a Status Quo. The war was over and it stayed like it was. Now the destruction continues again and this when the mess from the first destruction still is not cleaned up.” Having no knowledge of the situation within Karin and the other 7 villages on the shore of the Karin Sea, let me explain. Before the war, this area was predominantly, if not exclusively occupied by Serbians. When the war ended the area was a ghost town, devastated and burned out houses. The government of the day filled many of the houses with Croatian and Bosnian soldiers and refugees., on a rjesenje basis, that is the reason nothing progressed. The tenants would not work on property or land that they did not own. In August 2005 these tenancy agreements ended and the tenants moved to their new houses above Karin and in other towns. Only at this point, 18 months ago, did the properties come on the market and changes begin to happen. The wise money came in 2 years ago and agreed prices with owners and tenants to buy the properties when the agreements expired. As for illegal building, EVERY house in Karin has a building licence, this can be confirmed by the Obrovac planning department, there are NO new builds going on in the area, and I can only assume that you are mistaking the refurbished houses as being new. Town planning has little to do with anything here as most houses were built from the 60’s to the 80’s. “I understand that real estate agents, developers etc want to make people believe that this place will look like heaven on earth in a few years time. With correct regulation, with a lot of effort and planning it could be possible, but being in Croatia it is almost wishing like Koln and Aken were built on one day. “ Since this thread was and is a direct attack against myself, I will say this, we do not advertise in the press, we do not attend exhibitions, if someone wishes to sell their house, we advertise it for free on our website and people who are serious about investing in Croatia will find it. As for the Karin Sea, I have seen most of Croatia and I always love to come home. P.S. only 20 minutes from Zadar airport, Ryanair 3 times a week from Stansted ;D
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Post by mambo on Mar 14, 2007 15:20:54 GMT 1
Mark,
I understand your interest in this topic and my postings here could scare your potential customers if they would read it, which means no money in your pockets.
So I understand very well that you want to prove me wrong on all points, that I see it incorrectly etc.
Like I said, I don't care about the politics behind it. I don't care why it doesn't look perfect and I also don't care how many cables you stuff under the ground of why a house will not be restored or why the locals don't do anything. And I really don't care if all the houses have a building permission.
And you know why I don't care ?
Because a tourist on holiday also does not care. A tourist will arrive there, see the mess and will wonder where the hell he ended up. He will compare the pictures in the brochure with the reality and will realize that they pulled a fast one on him. He is not going to be happy.
Just ask yourself the following question.
If you had 1 or 2 weeks of holiday after a long year of hard work..........would you really want to spend those 2 weeks on the Karin Sea in its current (and most probable for the next 10 years) state ? I think almost everyone will simply say: 'No Thanks'
What is there to do ? Answer: Nothing
Yes you can lie on the sand, you can swim in the water, but that does not make the place special, you can do that everywhere in Croatia and with a much better view.
So what is it then ? Basically ? No idea.
And for the ones that want to buy houses there.............good luck. If you are willing to wait another 10 years on some improvement then it could be something. But I fear it will never become a place where hordes of tourists will flock the city, which you need to make your investment worth while.
I prefer places like Murter, Primosten, Korcula, the Kornati or even Sukosan.
I am sorry Mark that I am not very enthousiastic about the Karin Sea and that you feel offended your business is under attack, but it is simply my opinion. I have seen too many examples all over the world of uncontrolled building frenzies and the end result was always the same. The country and coast line was destroyed, the pockets of developers/agents and politicians were full and the tourists were gone after a few years. In the end the local people were left with a situation far worse than before.
Only goverments/developers with a real long term view and plan can make a difference for the country and it is about time they make a start here in this country. Finally here in Porec some people start to understand that there is more to tourism than building houses like crazy, so they finally started to do some landscaping, improving the roads, constructing parking places, cleaning up the mess. They still have a long way to go, but it is necessary if you want to develop tourism for the long term.
I am simply not the type of person that says: 'if I don't do it someone else will do it, so it might as well be me'. That is the attitude that Paparazzi also use and it is an attitude I don't like.
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