UK Still Against Croatia

[Carlos]

From The Guardian, London:

"War crimes cause EU rift over Croatia

Ian Traynor in Zagreb
Thursday December 9, 2004
The Guardian

Britain and Germany are at loggerheads over Croatia's push to join the EU, a week before a summit is supposed to set a date for the start of membership negotiations.

While Croatia's centre-right government is betting much of its credibility on obtaining an April date for the EU talks, Britain is leading the resistance unless the Croatian authorities capture the fugitive war crimes suspect General Ante Gotovina and transfer him for trial to the war crimes tribunal in The Hague.

Germany wants to set a date for the EU negotiations at the Brussels summit next week, arguing that the EU's expansion policy should not be held hostage by Carla del Ponte, the chief prosecutor in The Hague.

"There are talks going on and [tribunal] conditionality has got to be part of the outcome," said Denis MacShane, the minister for Europe. "We can't just let that drop."

Mr MacShane was in Berlin yesterday for talks with German officials on the issue, which echoes a 1991 row when Germany successfully pushed for EU recognition of Croatian independence against bitter British opposition.

The German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, said last week that EU negotiations with Croatia should start in April. A paper prepared by the current Dutch EU presidency for next week's summit does not, however, specify a starting date.

The Austrian chancellor, Wolfgang Schüssel, is also in favour of talks with Croatia. British reluctance to acquiesce unless Croatia is much more active on the war crimes issue was supported by the Dutch, the Poles and some Scandinavian EU members, diplomats said.

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Two weeks ago Ms Del Ponte told the UN security council that Croatia's cooperation was unsatisfactory and that a Croatian state security network was sheltering and protecting Gen Gotovina.

After Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, Gen Gotovina is the tribunal's third most wanted man. That he remained at large more than three years after being indicted meant that "the networks protecting war criminals are more powerful than this part of the government that genuinely wants to cooperate fully with the tribunal", Ms Del Ponte said.

Mr MacShane said that that made Croatia unfit for talks on EU membership and also sent the wrong signals to Serbia, which is much more obstructive on war crimes".


This is terrible! Can someone explain WHY?

[Guest]

Basically - It sends out a message to both Croatia and Serbia not to shelter people who've commited war crimes - I thought that was obvious!

[Marija]

Can you commit a crime if you defend your own home/country? Gotovina is innocent!

[Englishman in Zagreb]

Marija, although Croatia was (perhaps) forced into war, they definitely committed war crimes, as did the Serbs and the Muslins.

I have spoken in great detail to a very famous Dutch general who is not very popular in Croatia, (I am sure you know who I mean).
The one thing he said that is in this war all three sides did horrific things that he has never seen in battle before.

The people who committed these crimes, especially genocide should be sent to prison for life, regardless of nationality.

[Guest]

If Gotovina is inocent he has nothing to worry about when facing the war crimes tribunal in The Hague.If he is guilty he has - and thats maybe why he is being sheltered / hiding. You can't have one rule for the Serbs and another for the Croats.

[Mario ZG]

You guys forget that Croats were attacked in their own homes/country. They had every rigth to defend themselves. Close to 20,000 Croats died as result of Serbian agression, enormous economic damage was done to Croatia ($78 billion or thereabout), since the war over 1,200 Croats died from mines (planted by the Serbs). And so on...

The Dutch general talks nonsense: the Dutch in Srebernica allowed Serbs to kill 8,000 Bosnians.

And now my question: why is the UK the only country in the EU against Croatia's entry to this organisation, and why the UK was the only country against the recognition of Croatia in 1991. Please tell me WHY? Please explain this to me and other Croats very curious to know this.

[Dim]

talking about war crimes?? double standards??


well in Balkans they are called war crimes in Iraq they are collateral damage. Dresden bombing?? Remeber that?? anyone responsible??

so how come US forces all small countries to sign agreement of non extradition of their citisens to the international tribunal of war crimes and on the other hand they force and put pressure trough Britons that Croats have to give Gotovina.

BTW Gotovina has French citisenship and there is no proof he is in Cro anyhow.

Loads of double standards here.

Yes I think he should give him self up but blaming Cro government for it is absurd. Everyone and everything Carla asked for was given to her except Gotovina.

[Guest]

The recent British decision to postpone ratification of Stabilisation Agreement showed, Croatia's failure to meet agreed EU standards has a wider effect on the country's relations with the European Union than many in Croatia currently seem willing to accept. At the moment the politicians and the people of Croatia are under the impression that the steps towards eventual EU accession can continue regardless of current controversies regarding democratic reforms or co-operation with The Hague. This is not the case. As the head of the European Commission delegation in Zagreb, Jacques Wunenburger, recently highlighted, now it would not be the 'best time' for Croatia to apply for EU candidacy

[Guest]

So i assume dim that if we drop the war crimes tribunal for Gotovino, you won't object if we do the same for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic?

[Luka]

How can you compare Gotovina with Mladic and Karadzic?

Mladic is responsabile, among other things, for murder od 8,000 Bosnians in Srebernica, Karadzic for for, among other, for 12,500 people killed in Sarajevo. And Gotovina for being of commander of CRO forces, when a small number of crimes were commited.

[Dim]

Guest-Guest said:

So i assume dim that if we drop the war crimes tribunal for Gotovino, you won't object if we do the same for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic?

WE drop charges??
are WE here talking to Carla on this forum or you think that your nationality whatever it is, gives you the power to drop charges. Love this collonial attitude.
WE WE WE

read carefully i think Gotovina should defend him self in front of the court. He is indicted for "commanding responsability"

Its just this equalisation of the guilt that is bothering me. Winners have never been on the trial except now. But that is the easiest way for International community to act. they are all guilty some more some less so we will pick a few from each nation and then justice will be served.

the thing is that Croats did not go to Serbia and did not wage war there while Serbs (from Serbia proper)did came here.

[Guest]

Guest-Guest said:

So what your saying is - If you get hit by the "playground bully" it's OK to kick the out of him?

[guest]

Dim,
I don't think you understand the definition of "war crimes". Waging war and fighting back are a given when at war, but war crimes are those that go beyond usual combat behaviour.

And yes, even if the war occurs on your home turf, you are expected not to engage in horrific war crimes. And the punishment should be meted out to exactly the "commander of Cro forces", who was responsible for issuing the orders. The number of crimes commited should have no bearing; even one crime against humanity should be punished.

Punishing the ring leaders sends a strong message, and it's right for them to ask for a closure to this issue before even thinking about asking Croatia to join civilized society.

[Dim]

Guest-guest said:

Dim,
I don't think you understand the definition of "war crimes". Waging war and fighting back are a given when at war, but war crimes are those that go beyond usual combat behaviour.

And yes, even if the war occurs on your home turf, you are expected not to engage in horrific war crimes. And the punishment should be meted out to exactly the "commander of Cro forces", who was responsible for issuing the orders. The number of crimes commited should have no bearing; even one crime against humanity should be punished.

Punishing the ring leaders sends a strong message, and it's right for them to ask for a closure to this issue before even thinking about asking Croatia to join civilized society.

ok so name one war where all conventions were respected by any side.


By all means i agree that cro forces did some bad things in the war, but linking it to some "commanding responsability" and blocking Croatia to join EU because of one man is hiding and because report of One woman (Carla) is absurd especially since this blocking is coming mainly from from U.K. who at the momment are waging a war far far from their homeland doing simmilar things as "wild Balkan tribes"did in 90es.

Civilized society?? haha please, what a double standards allover.

[guest]

British reluctance to acquiesce unless Croatia is much more active on the war crimes issue was supported by the Dutch, the Poles and some Scandinavian EU members, diplomats said.

So it isn't just the UK is it then, but don't let that bother you, it's the UK that is always on its one blocking Croatia's EU entry.

since the war over 1,200 Croats died from mines (planted by the Serbs).

So a single one wasn't planted by a Croat?

What annoys me more about the Gotovina issue is that the government in Zagreb says one thing, but the local government from where he is from does the opposite and regards the man as a hero (There is a picture of him in the Zadar town hall.) If you are serious about trying to catch him, why not bring a law which outlaws the display or support of suspected war criminals?