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Post by crojoe on Jul 14, 2010 9:12:32 GMT 1
OK, a lot of hype in the news of late how we foreign devils are breaking the rules, operate companies that make no profit, rent out apartments without permits and the list goes on. Seems the Croatian government wants to crack down on such activities and punish us. The ironic part of all this is they created the system in the first place, from the start by making it impossible for foreigners to buy property other then via forming a company. Of course, the company then lays dormant, which then equates no business activity (no wonder you have to have a PHD to figure this one out). Then they lift the policy and allow foreigners to buy property privately, like any normal Croatian. The catch, unlike any “normal” Croatian is we can’t rent our accommodation out unless we have a business. Croatians on the other hand only need apply for a permit, not open a business. An interesting point is that “when”, and “if” they join the EU in a year or so, all this (bleep, beep etc.) will have to be removed, and such idiotic regulations and rules will have to be discarded (with EU equal rights and freedom of movement etc.). Seems to be a last ditch stand by some bodies to cling onto that nationalistic fervour, toss up a smoke screen to hide their financial woes or dealings, and skim the people one more time. So sad they had to make their entry into the EU so painful for so many, instead of friendly, more optimistic and accommodating. Seems to be “bite the hand that offers friendship and cooperation”.
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delta
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Post by delta on Jul 14, 2010 10:45:08 GMT 1
It's ironic you say Croatia is blocking business activities of foreigners, most people in Croatia thinks that Croatia gave too much to foreign companies and got little in return. Think of all the banks, breweries, telecom companies, making lots of money here, while Croatia is still outside EU...
Also, would it be possible for me to go freely to your country and work and do business there without any restrictions?
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Post by crojoe on Jul 14, 2010 14:16:03 GMT 1
Yes Delta, if you had a proper visa like we all must get to stay in Croatia, then your prospects of getting an ok job are many, and you would find getting a bank account, a national security number, doing your tax return on-line (once a year without an accountant) and so forth all very straight forward. Most of all you would be treated with respect, according to the law and not told so often that everything is difficult (nor do you have to do favours or bribe anyone or know a VIP person to get legal things done).
I think once a person travels outside their country and experience the world, and then you start to see clearly that back home not everything is as it should be.
I admit even my home country (UK) has it's fair share of problems, crime, bad points, control, but most simple aspects of life are much simpler, less regimented and controlled, and legal work is a whole lot easier (even for illegal immigrants).
I guess my point in writing what I did is to point out the fact that those that write the laws are quite fascist towards foreigners.
I'm not for uncontrolled immigration, illegal immigrants, but if a person (foreigner) has a house in Croatia, married to a Croatian, owns a business in the country, then procedures should be much simpler and one shouldn’t be made to feel like a criminal.
It’s often the procedure, not the people that are the problem. Go to the central immigration office in Zagreb and you will find the ladies are ok (although sick of their jobs), but it’s the procedure they and we (the foreigner) are sick off and that causes the problems. I've had quite a few of them over the years tell me point blank that they didn't understand all the whys with some procedures or law changes, but they are told to do it one way and that’s it. There's often no clear explanation, no real sympathy, no answers and all concerned are left frustrated.
I think Croatia should enjoy the few people they have from the foreign community, as most, if not all pay their bills on time, pay taxes, don't disturb the peace, invest their money and aren’t to much trouble.
Ok, certain foreign companies own large businesses in Croatia, but most of them got started by outside investment, employ mostly Croatians and actually offer some ok customer service. Actually, working conditions, pay, and working ethics are often better in a foreign owned company. Even Croatian owned firms and stores have had to update their service greatly, and I think this is in “great part” due to the arrival of foreign companies.
Sadly, Croatia doesn’t make anything in large amounts for export. The Kuna is so over valued, so now no one wants to come to Croatia to open factories. There's some agriculture, but even that isn't much. The only good thing the country has going for is it tourism. Problem with that is it's like having all your eggs in one basket. You drop it and you got problems.
Maybe the likes of the Croatian train service, HEP and so forth should be bought by a foreign investor, at least they will try to update the service, invest money and make it work. I’d say that even MUP should be taken over, and run like a proper business, at least then we might get some proper service, such as forms on-line, English speaking staff, and the possibility to send ones renewal application through the mail.
Many hotels along the coast that have been bought by foreigners have been improved to world class standards, and no longer youth hostels or 2 star accommodation.
Oh, and the reason Croatia is still outside the EU is not because of foreign business, but Croatia’s refusal to make changes to its judicial laws, some war crime matters and slowness to open up it’s marketplace more. Besides, how many Croatians live and work abroad in the EU, or the “World” compared to the number of foreigners that live and work in Croatia today? Croatians working abroad far outweigh the number of foreigners (I’m not talking about Hercagovina’s, Bosnians or Serbians, as history has shown them to be here in great numbers) that live and work here.
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Post by zagrebcity on Jul 14, 2010 14:37:14 GMT 1
yes, if I had proper visa - but it is almost impossible to get anything except tourist visa for UK.. and I'm almost sure that I can not come to UK, buy the house and rent out the apartments..
I think it's based on reciprocity..
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Post by crojoe on Jul 14, 2010 14:42:32 GMT 1
oh, and the reason so many Croatians may feel that they are getting so little in return for joining the EU is propaganda.
I think Croatia doesn’t have to join the EU, and could still benefit greatly, but the fact of the matter is the powers that be in the land don't want either. Self interest is their main concern.
Every house that is owned by a foreigner was once owned by a Croatian. That Croatian sold his house and made a good profit. Most didn't have to sell, but money was to be made so they sold it.
I know for a fact that a number of large Croatian firms are making millions, and it is reported that the largest retail owner (KONZ) is making loads, but at the same time not paying its' suppliers.
Croatian rail saw certain management run off with millions, ship yards lay idle because of the asking price, and companies don't want to pay their staff.
Then, you got one of the highest tax rates in Europe, and a defunct tax system that encourages "black" business.
Other then that, life goes on, and it’s easy to blame someone else.
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delta
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Post by delta on Jul 14, 2010 15:02:42 GMT 1
Yes Delta, if you had a proper visa like we all must get to stay in Croatia, then your prospects of getting an ok job are many, and you would find getting a bank account, a national security number, doing your tax return on-line (once a year without an accountant) and so forth all very straight forward. Most of all you would be treated with respect, according to the law and not told so often that everything is difficult (nor do you have to do favours or bribe anyone or know a VIP person to get legal things done). So you are saying that is the road you took, you applied for work with one of Croatian companies, got a job, opened an account and after several years you started your own business? Funny, I was under impression that most of western immigrants to Croatia just purchased real-estate and now want to rent it? Am I wrong?
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delta
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Post by delta on Jul 14, 2010 15:31:57 GMT 1
Crojoe, while it is true that many things in Croatia are not as they should be, calling laws fascistic just because you don't have the same right as local people as soon as you move in is quite unrealistic. Fact of life is that in vast majority of states local people have different legal status then foreigners, unless we speak about colonies or banana-republics.
Consider another thing; if Croatia joins EU, there will be restricted period for Croatian workers to find employment in EU, while in the same time Englishmen for instance will have no restrictions for Croatia. So, even if Croatia enters EU, we will have fewer rights then you. Yet, you call Croatian laws fascist?
Anyway, if your wife is Croatian, why didn't you just apply for citizenship?
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 14, 2010 16:44:46 GMT 1
hey this thread is great. I want to respond. All i can say is that people that move to australia from croatia can do anything that any other normal person is allowed to do...in terms of investing, working etc... croatia however is full of red tape... thats why minister suker cannot generate enough domestic revenue to fund a little tiny country of 4 million people. croatias economic gestapo turn over every stone to kill all forms of investemnt...and what they do is make people hide under stones. its like they create totaly insane rules then iron out all possible loop holes. they are so good at doing this...had plenty of practise in commy days... that all forms of constructive investment is too affraiof to invest in croatia. the terms and business environment are totaly catastpphically stupid. they import EVERYTHING....snd nip in the bud any hope of anything being produced in croatia...and croatia exporting...thats light years away. the tax system sucks big time.
banks, insurance companies etc...for some reason have been allowed to invest in crioatia...and do make big money...good for them... i wonder why theyve so easily infiltrated into croatias system...while other smaller investments have no chance...you know why??? cos our croatian politicians are lookign after their own butts and think they are intellignet wwhen they balance their corrupt practices and dealings with trying to keep croatia from bankrupcy... so the only investemt that works in croatia are the ones that provide big money..immediately. look at marina dropulic...actually knocked down houses all over croatia...that were built on the black...cos the laws left people without a choice. and only later did we find out the real extend of hypocricy and brutal ruthless hypocricy amongst politicians. so a bunch of foregingers investing their life savings and talking a gamble in croatia need to be given some room...they came here with hope for a future. but as far as phone company , banks and insurance etc...ripping off croats...direct your anger toward the politicians. i think they have absolutely no sympathy for average people at all. Suker just announced its a great achievemt that croatia got anther loan!!! hahhahahahahha.. what he shouldve done is get rid of gestapo inspectors, stupid laws, create a fantastic investor climate, get rid of the red tape. but they are doing the opposite. cos they are idiotic scum.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 14, 2010 16:55:36 GMT 1
if foreigners come here and rent property out what is wrong with that??? youd be mad to invest money in anything else in croatia...when renting out property is the closest any average person has to making some money,. im sure that many people would love to come here and open firms...export etc...but they system offers nothing to investors. so basically people should come to croatia and gamble the future of themseklves and family for the well being of a country that does everything in a power to take your money and ruin you. haha. yeah sure. been there done that...thats all i will say. im much wiser today. im getting feedback from relatives who just moved back to australia... i will say that croatia is still behind some kind of iron curtain and lightyears from being investor friendly. why dont these politicans just copy laws and regulations poilices from succesfull nations. ? its easy. 1st step stop importing. motivate domestic production. make the laws flexible. burn the red tape. speed up permits. change the tax system. whats the problem mr suker? lenidng money and having no way to pay it back is crazy. so now they want to fine anyone they can in croatia for anything. down the drain for croatia with these kinds of politicians.
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Post by crojoe on Jul 14, 2010 20:12:38 GMT 1
Well Delta, after 5 years I think I can speak freely from a foreigner’s point of view on matters that concern us in Croatia. First, I didn't say your laws are fascistic, I said certain ones that pertain to taxes, opening a company (or closing one), getting visa's are pretty dumb, lame, idiotic and border on plain stupidity. I think most Croatians will agree with me on this one.
I also defined the difference between Croatian people and the policy makers, the later only interested in their self endeavours.
I don't know if you own your own business, employ Croatian workers, purchased your own house, but many of these activities you will find we foreigners engage in. Most don't want to become instant millionaires, but being able to survive and live a normal life is the name of the game.
On the point of joining the EU, I think you will find that any so called "cap" on numbers from Croatia to the EU will not happen. Already, Croatians can freely travel in the EU, so I don't see the point on this. For your info, the UK was the only country in the EU that didn't apply any cap on the last major EU joining program, thus we got 1.5 million Polish people who moved from Poland to the UK (imagine Zagreb, its metropolitan and number of other counties all moving to another country, that’s 1/4 the population of Croatia). The only reason they put a cap on Bulgaria and Romania is pretty plain to see (go visit these two countries and you'll see why). I'm not saying Croatia should or shouldn't join the EU, but the process could be easier and less painful for the people.
By the way, my wife isn't Croatian.
And, to answer zagrebcity, you can buy a house in the UK, just like I can in Croatia. Both countries have this agreement, the same goes with free medical. To get a residence visa you do need to prove you have a house and can afford living there, just the same as we must do in Croatia. The difference it that it's not done on a yearly basic and you don't have to wait months for an answer, plus all the laws are pretty straight forward, you can get free information and be treated nice.
Besides all that crap, Croatia is a nice country with quite a few nice folks.
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delta
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Post by delta on Jul 15, 2010 8:59:17 GMT 1
Business regulation in Croatia is quite complicated and business climate in general is bad. All this is well understood. However, I am wondering is this something deliberately organized to make life difficult for foreigners, or, as I believe, is just result of general ineffectiveness of Croatian authorities.
And, yes, I own my business, have employed Croatian workers and purchased my own flat.
As I also spent several years living and working in European country, so I can say from personal experience that life of a foreigner is always more complicated then those of a local guy. Unless you own a bank or something.
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Post by crojoe on Jul 15, 2010 11:06:56 GMT 1
Well, that’s the point! Business is difficult from most angles in this fine country, but need not be. It would take very little change to simplify things, but will they?
Yes, as a foreigner I agree one is never fully accepted by the locals, but I guess my point is Croatian immigration laws and procedures just make it that much more difficult, and like the above comment about business, it could be a lot simpler.
It’s a bit like the Chinese situation in Croatia. Several years ago the government passed some laws to limit their presence here, but this year (and part of last year) they now openly talk about inviting Chinese investment, business, building contracts and so forth…., all because it suits their situation right now, and they’re desperate.
I find that most improvements would take very little time and be affordable. It sounds crazy, but at Zagreb Police station, the sector where foreigners go, have all these signs up in Croatian, and only 1 sign in English saying foreigners to line up at window such and such. All signs are printed on B/W A4 paper. I actually asked them if I could translate the signs for them (free of charge), and the answer was they would need permission from the actual director of MUP. On the MUP site they have no forms that you can download. They have the forms in paper form, so why not just scan them in PDF and post them on their site for us all to download and fill-out at home? Why is it that each time you need a form you have to brave going up to the window (with all in line looking at you with scorn) to ask one of the 2 ladies for the form. Why not just tack a holder to the wall and have the forms available (the forms don't cost anything). While all other counters on the floor have a number system, the line for foreigners does not. Why? So, all have to line up for close to 2 plus hours to get served.
Similar to the above, is why one has to have an accountant in Croatia for book keeping? Most countries allow you to do your own books or hire an accountant at your choosing, or better yet do your tax return on-line, but not in Croatia.
It just doesn’t make sense to complicate things, unless it's done on purpose...., and that I believe is the case.
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pink
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Post by pink on Jul 15, 2010 11:38:10 GMT 1
If you have the money, you CAN easily purchase real estate without restrictions in most countries of the world and proceed with renting it out.
You can very easily rent out the property as an individual without all the ongoing bureaucracy, restrictions, ongoing change of laws/policies, expenses, red tape, problems that there are in Croatia etc etc etc. It's expensive and frustrating! All you have to do is pay the relevant tax on the income generated (if applicable). It's an easy and straightforward process.
This is NOT an easy thing to do in Croatia......yet Croatia welcomed all the foreign investment in real estate. Of course, this is good for any countries economy. What is wrong if the investors want to rent out their property to generate some income to help cover their costs? Absolutely Nothing!
Believe me, no one informed these investors at the time of puchase how difficult/if not almost impossible it would be to do this legally! If I knew now what I knew at the time I purchased, I would never have purchased in Croatia! It's a nightmare. I could easily have purchased in France, Spain, Italy, UK or many other countries without all this hassle and I am not an national of these countries. Croatia is driving people away.
The right to residency/employment regulations are of course a different matter and yes, are different for foreigners than nationals of a particular country. No one is disputing this.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 15, 2010 13:13:15 GMT 1
in croatia you are not allowed to do anything...but if you have connections you can do whatever you want. its as if the lwas and people are all set up like that. jelousy or something. commy control. no idea...but they are definately chasing away investment. we are croatian background and moved here...tried applying our aussie experience to this country...but no way... we were naieve and honest...and that dont work in croatia. we came from a country where you pay your taxes without question and everything functions. we moved here...and every tom dik and harry...think you are ripping someone off...cos theyd do that in your position. what else? just look what the pliticians are like. no respect. kosor even brushes aside petitions,,,sanader wants to build mega bridges and roads...suker wants to borrowm mega amounts of money. but they import everything and chase investors away.
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Post by 3lions on Jul 15, 2010 14:11:51 GMT 1
Good ole juicy thread this.
All I can say is that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.
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