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Post by ray51 on Jul 21, 2010 7:37:03 GMT 1
I assure you , EU is not the magical cure-all panacea some would so much hope it to be ; after aligning themselves with all the legislation etc. ( or claiming to have done so ) , there are examples of new member countries which have made good progress ( Slovakia , Slovenia , Czech Rep. , Poland even , reportedly , of lately ) and also of those who are getting nowhere quickly , except begging for handouts ( Hungary , Rumania , Lithuania , Latvia...) ; then you also have some "old" members , who after many years of benefitting from huge EU funding , still are the economic basket cases of Europe ( Greece , Portugal ) ... Another case of : you can bring the horse to the water , but... ? ( Or : Vuk dlaku mijenja , ali cud : Nikada .)
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 22, 2010 16:05:50 GMT 1
IMO too many people are comparing Croatia to other "well established" western countries, which is not fair at the moment.
We would all like the bureaucracy to be easier, but its just not like that yet. Come back in another five years and judge it then!
We know people that re located their lives to France, Italy and Portugal 20 years ago and it was just as bad for them.
We have been here nearly six years and it is so much easier now, not perfect by any means, but it is getting there slowly.
I agree that many of the people in power and the current systems in place in Croatia are a throw back to "commy" times (to quote Poiter) and this will take time to over haul.
If you want it easy (LOL) then try one of the more "established" EU countries, assuming of course that you can afford it.
The grass is not always greener on other side.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 22, 2010 21:25:39 GMT 1
5 years you reckon? if you speak with these youngns in croatia...you will see very quickly that it could take numerous generations for a change that would lead to a great investor climate in croatia....if ever. croatia is good for having a holiday house, a rental property or for going back to the middle ages and living of the land..all else is grabbing a wild horse by the tail (thats not a compliment)
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Post by 3lions on Jul 23, 2010 0:35:06 GMT 1
In other words, many laws are so complex or that it either gives no room for appeal, or it allows too much room for abuse. The other point is open market policies. Although I think Croatian companies should benefit, it's not all that wise to give certain companies the monopoly, as simply put they abuse that power & charge what they like (as is so often the case with prices in stores today). Politicians might become a bit more accountable for their actions and have outside scrutiny, which would suit the situation just fine right now. There is plenty of room to appeal as court cases take several years. Also not sure where Croatian politicians will come under scrutiny? From who, or what? Accountable?
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Post by 3lions on Jul 23, 2010 1:21:58 GMT 1
IMO too many people are comparing Croatia to other "well established" western countries, which is not fair at the moment. We would all like the bureaucracy to be easier, but its just not like that yet. Come back in another five years and judge it then! We know people that re located their lives to France, Italy and Portugal 20 years ago and it was just as bad for them. We have been here nearly six years and it is so much easier now, not perfect by any means, but it is getting there slowly. I agree that many of the people in power and the current systems in place in Croatia are a throw back to "commy" times (to quote Poiter) and this will take time to over haul. If you want it easy (LOL) then try one of the more "established" EU countries, assuming of course that you can afford it. The grass is not always greener on other side. I guess it depends on what sort of character you have to begin with. Adopt the three wise monkeys "if we do not hear, see, or speak evil, we ourselves shall be spared all evil,"
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Post by mambo on Jul 23, 2010 11:22:41 GMT 1
Please MG, enlighten us, what has become 'so much easier for you during that time' ?
I am all ears and guess many others as well.
Spain, Italy, Greece etc are absolutely not easier at all, but that should not be used as a reason to justify the current situation in Croatia. I never understand people who finger point to other countries and then claim that they have an excuse. All you are doing is competing with the bad eggs in the basket, while you should always compete with the best. Don't aim low and subsequently start to aim lower.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 23, 2010 14:28:23 GMT 1
im croatian...my parents are croatian...our whole family is croatian...and we cant either. its not abou being croatian...its all about having connections...cos then you can do whatever you want. apart from that ...everything is pretty much impossible to do legaly or succesfully....or at all. im still looking for a niche in whatever ..so as to make a couple of euros on the black...but i cant even do that. while my close relative that just moved back to australia...has been given on the job training and is making 1.300 dollars a week...and his boss loves him. now...you cant even imagine that in croatia...i know from what i have experienced here...that croatia is light years from that..economicallyand or mentaly.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 23, 2010 14:30:43 GMT 1
many people of croatian background have made the move to croatia...and then gone back to australia frustrated and with less money in their pockets...they wont be good ambasadors for croatia..thats 4 sure.
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 26, 2010 16:14:13 GMT 1
Hi Mambo, "Please MG, enlighten us, what has become 'so much easier for you during that time' ?"
In bureaucratic terms certainly the visa system and real estate legal system have become much better. Six years ago both were a complete nightmare, now they are just frustrating.
In personal terms, our understanding and acceptance of the Croatian system and way of doing things have made life here very much easier.
When we first arrived we had the wrong attitude. We expected things to be done the way we were used to in the UK, and when we demanded they be done! Once we had set this attitude aside life here became far easier and simpler.
Second would be the language. While I am still not proficient by any means, once you have a basic grasp of the lingo its amazing how much easier everything gets.
It does take time and a genuine change of attitude to assimilate into another culture. When in Rome..........
"Spain, Italy, Greece etc are absolutely not easier at all, but that should not be used as a reason to justify the current situation in Croatia."
I was not trying to justify Croatia's current situation, more trying to make a fair comparison against similar countries. Those three countries have been EU member states much longer and have better established and developed tourism and economies. Poiter keeps making the comparison to Australia, which has a far more developed economy etc, I think those of Spain, Italy and Greece might be better options for comparison, that's all.
"Don't aim low and subsequently start to aim lower."
I agree totally, aim high, but at least realistically! If you spend too long looking up at the stars you will just end up with a stiff neck.
Poiter; "5 years you reckon?"
Five years is generally considered "medium term" so we should see by then if Croatia has made reasonable progress or not. Ten, fifteen or twenty years would of course be better, but from the sound of your posts I don't think you are here for the long run.
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 26, 2010 16:19:10 GMT 1
3Lions wrote; "I guess it depends on what sort of character you have to begin with. Adopt the three wise monkeys "if we do not hear, see, or speak evil, we ourselves shall be spared all evil," "Not 100% sure if I am taking your post the right or wrong way here 3L..... But I for one am certainly not the type to bury my head in the sand, quite the reverse in fact.
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Post by mambo on Jul 26, 2010 17:06:26 GMT 1
@ MG,
Thanks for your explanation............however when I read it I cannot help concluding that basically your idea of improvement means that you lowered your expectation level to such a point where it cannot bother you anymore. Nothing can surprise you anymore and now that you understand the Croatian way of thinking you can predict how they will react, thus you won't be taken by surprise anymore.
That is not exactly an improvement of society and/or the system if you understand what I mean.
As for the immigration rules ? In the past it was pretty simple. You went to the police with your papers and a few days later you had the stamp in your pass port. All of a sudden that changed drastically and other, more restrictive rules were put in place. Many many foreigners experienced the lottery kind of approach, where one would get the permit, while others would not. The result was that foreigners, who had been living here for many years, were forced to leave.
Again, that is not something that I call an improvement.
But ok, opinions can differ I suppose.
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poiter
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Post by poiter on Jul 26, 2010 22:13:52 GMT 1
hey i would love to stay here for many reasons...the sea, the views etc... but i dont have anyone to hang out with thats on the same frequency here. And i need money...unfortunately...and croatia is not exactly the land of plenty or of opportunity. It looks as if im not going to have an option but to leave, whether i want to or not.
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Post by Madgolfer on Jul 30, 2010 13:03:25 GMT 1
I cannot help concluding that basically your idea of improvement means that you lowered your expectation level to such a point where it cannot bother you anymore. Nothing can surprise you anymore and now that you understand the Croatian way of thinking you can predict how they will react, thus you won't be taken by surprise anymore.
I am constantly trying to find ways of improving the "situation" here, both in my business and in my private life, and yes the old ways of doing things do bother me.
But why do so many people keep trying to bang their heads against the wall! Deal with the system you have and change it from within instead of from outside.
If you understand (loose term) the current system and can get things done in that way, then why not use it?
Too many people expect things to change here overnight and that was never going to be case.
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Post by 3lions on Jul 30, 2010 17:54:17 GMT 1
So what is the current system and how do you use it?
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Post by mambo on Jul 30, 2010 21:09:55 GMT 1
@ Madgolfer,
I have used the system in every which way I could think of and I can honestly say that I stretched every single rule to the breaking point, but sometimes there is nothing you can do. Like Carol wrote in another topic, someone will call or write the inspectors and then you are history. A friend of mine (local, Croatian) had a bar and a mechanic shop for cars. Somebody wanted to open a bar close to him, called the inspectors with a bogus claim and they turned his place inside out. He received a huge fine for having a computer with DOS !!!! and he could not show the license (was OEM). This closed his bar, he got pissed off, started cursing, so they continued to his garage and shut that down as well. In one day he went from have a good life, working hard, to owing a s.h.*.t. load of money and out of work. He has a family with 2 children, can't support them anymore.
That is the reality of Croatia and sorry to say.............it s.u.c.k.s. One of the inspectors used to drink coffee in his place every day ! The guy was laughing when he closed him down.
And this is the reality you have to live in when you have a company in this country. I can close your company tomorrow if I want to, it is extremely simple. I will write to all local regions that you are creating a health risk. I can write this anonymous, no need to put a name, and you will have every single inspector on your doorstep. Once that is finished I will write a complaint that you are illegally dumping waste. Dear MG, you will be out of business before you even know what hit you.
But don't worry, I am not going to do that, it is just an example what people can do to close you down.
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