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Post by Ben on Mar 16, 2004 23:59:57 GMT 1
I am always amazed at how much this subject can polarise opinion. What I always find strange is that in a country where it is almost impossible to do anything without papers and registering, the general has a lawyer. How can a man have a lawyer and this lawyer not know where he is? Whether he is should go to the Hague is another thing. I often have heated discussion with my Croatian friends over this. My personal problem is that as a trained military person he should know what is against the rules of war and what is not, and as such should be willing to defend his actions. I agree that the mass exodus of the Serbs was mostly of self-choice, rather than a force one, but this point will never be heard until the general’s trial The biggest problems is that the line between being a proud Croat and extreme nationalism has been blurred mainly as a result of the early HDZ government, an example is the football club Dianmo Zagreb whose supports proudly have on the scarves an Ustasa slogan (eg ZA DOM SPREMNI), and these fans are lauded by the club. How many English football clubs have a club-sanctioned hooligan element? Other problems include a lack of independent judiciary, lack of proper policing and independence of the government, examples I can think of include nothing being done about someone speeding on a public road at 200 kph captured on camera, interviews with people who rioted at the Water Polo finals in Slovenia in a national paper, again nothing done, police bribery accusations, almost everyone I know says that money talks to the police louder than the facts, the fact that people don’t see a conflict of interests between government ministers awarding contracts to their own firms, all these points need addressing before Croatia can enter the EU And one of my pet hates the special treatment of war veterans. Now I don’t mind them getting war pensions, disability help, but when for example if you are a family member of a war veteran you receive better health care and are higher priority within the health service than a non war veteran on this basis rather than medical, this is wrong (ie ear implants for deaf children). This sounds like an anti-Croat rant, but it isn’t. It’s just the things I have noticed that really annoy me. I too think that the UK should remove the need for a visa to visit, the country should be treated better abroad. But the process is two-way. It has the potential to be a great country, but it just annoys me that a small but very vocal minority cause trouble, especially when many of these people live outside Croatia. Such proud Croats, but not living in the land they are so proud of. Why is this?
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Post by FIZZ on Mar 18, 2004 23:42:25 GMT 1
OOPS, SORRY GRAHAM. ::)I SHOULD NOT HAVE GOT CONFUSED BETWEEN PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENT. SO I'LL ASK AGAIN AND HOPE THAT I DON'T OFFEND ANYONE. WHY DID THE CROATION PRESIDENT FEEL IT NECESSARY TO DISMISS GOTOVINA? SHOULD HE NOT HAVE FELT THE URGE TO SUPPORT HIM?
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Post by Billie on Mar 18, 2004 23:50:01 GMT 1
I agree with Ben, and why is it that Croation people criticise the UK so much when they are not able to see a single fault with their own country? We know, as Brits, whether we are English,Irish Scots or Welsh that this country has numerous faults, hundreds of them in fact, but we are not so blinkered by nationalism that we cannot admit to them. Croats on the other hand seem to be able to turn a blind eye to every misdemenour they commit and always have to blame somebody else. Serbs or Brits or anyone who doesn't praise them 100% all the time. It's very shortsighted. By the way I also think that visas should be lifted from Croats visiting this country. Come on Croats, nobody is without fault, be big and admit to some of yours!
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Post by Claire on Mar 19, 2004 0:35:16 GMT 1
Why does this file appear to be on fire next to the author on the main board?
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Post by Ken on Mar 19, 2004 0:41:59 GMT 1
The Croats are probably trying to burn it. They don't want anyone to know anything about this subject. So either burn it or hide it under the bed, just as long as nobody gets to hear about anything bad they might have done.
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Post by Mirko on Mar 19, 2004 1:29:57 GMT 1
Very "funny"!
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Post by Anja on Mar 19, 2004 2:15:29 GMT 1
I am always amazed at how much this subject can polarise opinion. What I always find strange is that in a country where it is almost impossible to do anything without papers and registering, the general has a lawyer. How can a man have a lawyer and this lawyer not know where he is? Whether he is should go to the Hague is another thing. I often have heated discussion with my Croatian friends over this. My personal problem is that as a trained military person he should know what is against the rules of war and what is not, and as such should be willing to defend his actions. I agree that the mass exodus of the Serbs was mostly of self-choice, rather than a force one, but this point will never be heard until the general’s trial The biggest problems is that the line between being a proud Croat and extreme nationalism has been blurred mainly as a result of the early HDZ government, an example is the football club Dianmo Zagreb whose supports proudly have on the scarves an Ustasa slogan (eg ZA DOM SPREMNI), and these fans are lauded by the club. How many English football clubs have a club-sanctioned hooligan element? Other problems include a lack of independent judiciary, lack of proper policing and independence of the government, examples I can think of include nothing being done about someone speeding on a public road at 200 kph captured on camera, interviews with people who rioted at the Water Polo finals in Slovenia in a national paper, again nothing done, police bribery accusations, almost everyone I know says that money talks to the police louder than the facts, the fact that people don’t see a conflict of interests between government ministers awarding contracts to their own firms, all these points need addressing before Croatia can enter the EU And one of my pet hates the special treatment of war veterans. Now I don’t mind them getting war pensions, disability help, but when for example if you are a family member of a war veteran you receive better health care and are higher priority within the health service than a non war veteran on this basis rather than medical, this is wrong (ie ear implants for deaf children). This sounds like an anti-Croat rant, but it isn’t. It’s just the things I have noticed that really annoy me. I too think that the UK should remove the need for a visa to visit, the country should be treated better abroad. But the process is two-way. It has the potential to be a great country, but it just annoys me that a small but very vocal minority cause trouble, especially when many of these people live outside Croatia. Such proud Croats, but not living in the land they are so proud of. Why is this? Dear Ben, You seem to be very angry with Croatia..... May I ask you why is that? And BTW :my husbands father was a British Army officer, they lived all over the world, mostly Asia and everywhere they went they got a nice house, with laundry service, they could afford a seven day a week cleaner and my husband as a child had an eye operation organised by the Army his father worked for.
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Post by Anja on Mar 19, 2004 2:18:23 GMT 1
The Croats are probably trying to burn it. They don't want anyone to know anything about this subject. So either burn it or hide it under the bed, just as long as nobody gets to hear about anything bad they might have done. We do not want to burn anything.. We just want to let people know that we take control in our own country and we can do it without any 'help'. Is this something that doesn't suit you?
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Post by cronautic dot com on Mar 19, 2004 9:14:43 GMT 1
I agree with Ben, and why is it that Croation people criticise the UK so much when they are not able to see a single fault with their own country? We know, as Brits, whether we are English,Irish Scots or Welsh that this country has numerous faults, hundreds of them in fact, but we are not so blinkered by nationalism that we cannot admit to them. Croats on the other hand seem to be able to turn a blind eye to every misdemenour they commit and always have to blame somebody else. Serbs or Brits or anyone who doesn't praise them 100% all the time. It's very shortsighted. By the way I also think that visas should be lifted from Croats visiting this country. Come on Croats, nobody is without fault, be big and admit to some of yours! actually britain is not that different from yugoslavia at all. in fact, the role of england in uk can be easily compared to serbia's role in yugoslavia. the only difference is that the english began their expansion already some hundrets of years earlier before the first nation states came up and thus there able to establish a "british consciousness" - except in Ireland.
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Post by En on Mar 19, 2004 17:14:28 GMT 1
It's certainly a burning issue. American Ambassador to Croatia (Prosper)adopted a vocabulary of "solving" the case of General Gotovina; while naive Croatian counter-intelligence officals and certain government officals in Croatia, EU, and Britain run for Gotovina's arrest. Why and for what? Self criticism advise applies to several parties whose views are obviosly not widely attractive - since general Gotovina's a recognized hero. No country in the world would give up a carismatic man of his profile, but some of ours would even burn this topic!? I don't believe this. Though, we're not perfect.
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Post by Lizzie on Mar 22, 2004 23:07:08 GMT 1
Why doesn't anyone answer the original question? I am also interested. I am reading politics at uni and would love to hear the answers to the questions posed, but it would appear that when a question hits a nerve, nobody chooses to address the sometimes difficult questions posed. Why is that? It seems to be a "croatian" thing.
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Post by John on Mar 22, 2004 23:14:14 GMT 1
Ask yourself? Very stange they all suddenly disappear when the going gets tough. Typical. or cowardly whichever way you choose to view it. The reason without doubt is they cannot defend themselves,so far better to keep quiet, and just keep knocking other countries than to admit to "horror of horrors" croatian faults. You have to have real backbone to admit to crimes and quite simply these people do not have the necessary backbone. All they want to hear are gullible tourists telling each other how clean the bloody sea is!!! There is more to life.... someone tell them................PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by John on Mar 22, 2004 23:16:21 GMT 1
PS. I am also not a Serb, not at all interested inSerbian interests!!!! But nobody will believe me!!! ofcourse!!
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Post by Anja on Mar 22, 2004 23:29:22 GMT 1
You have to have real backbone to admit to crimes and quite simply these people do not have the necessary backbone. All they want to hear are gullible tourists telling each other how clean the bloody sea is!!! There is more to life.... someone tell them................PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hello??? Why shouting? Why do you get so upset with what happens in a foreign country to you.. Clean in front of your door first.. Croatia is a modern and sovereign country with democratic standards, in a middle of Europe with huuuuuge potentials - and it will stay so -like it or not! Gotovina might have ordered killing of civilians but so did other leaders in the world.. e.q. Mr B&B & Co.. in much bigger numbers.. When they are going to court? Nobody ever went to court for Hiroshima killings.. Why don't you go to American messageboard and try to enforce justice there.. When you stop having double standards we will answer your questions.. but only if they are asked kindly.. And John: we do not have problem with Serbs.. they are returning to Croatia in big numbers .. like it or not.. again
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Post by Ivica M on Apr 6, 2004 12:48:56 GMT 1
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