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Post by Frano on Aug 17, 2004 21:18:15 GMT 1
And I was not far from there: Slunj. You expelled all the Croats from there and stole our property. You even murdered some Slunj people.
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Post by Jiras on Aug 17, 2004 21:44:00 GMT 1
Croatian Propaganda again huh? I thought so....
And you explelled/killed.tortured/mutilated almost all serbs from Croatia and stole Krajina , a land which was seperate from Croatia for over 400 years untill Tito annexed into croatia under new map revisions.
Enjoy it while you have it.... It wont be forever
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Post by C H on Aug 17, 2004 22:28:29 GMT 1
well, the thruth would be, which only few serbs and even fewer croats will admit, that the war was set up between tudjman and milosevic. Leaving all historical/political clashes and differences, the only ones that profited from war were families and close associates to both Tudjman and Milosevic, each in their own country. They took billions of dollars, sent thousands to death. even in biggest fights, cro adn serb mafia worked together, as did the politicians. Tudjman and Milosevic had a private "hot line" during the war where they dicsussed war and what do to next. Sure, there were big croatian and serbian nationalists, but money was the primary goal of the war. Tudjman, a great croatian nationalist, and "father of the nation", as retards like to call him, had in fact 2 grandsons who were serbs. One ruined a bank whose debts had to be payed by croatian tax payers, after that he left to live in Belgrade (serbia) with his "hard earned" cash. his other son was and still is a rally driver. Living in Germany, dirving a porshe in german rally and having 1 of the best and most expensive support teams in europe, his grandad's stolen milions sure help him. While they were doing that, tens of thousands of people died. Of course, other great croatian sons stole a lot more that those 2, but they're just examples that every war after WWII was fought for money primarly.
THe sad thing is, if you mention this to average croat, he'll go mad and start accusing you and calling you names. That especially goes for ex croatian fighters who deep down know that they fought for nothing, but they can't admit that to themselves. They see that the country they were fighting for is a s**hitty, corrupted place, unlike a promised land of great economy, independence, and happy people once promoted by that sick man.
When you want to start a war, just find radicals on both sides. Then send them to rural areas where education is very poor and where urban way of thinking can not be imagined. After that, bring few real neo fascists to be part of the governments, and then take control of media in a country.
Now, give weapons to both sides, croats in that part were underdogs, as most of the powerful yugo army joined serbian side. Then just wait for an incident, doesn't matter who starts it, it's all going to hell.
Mix that with bloody history, opression of communist system that favoured serbs, and you get a ground for few years of good old primitive massacre.
Images of death on television 24/7, controlling and occupying the nation, while real reasons and actions start to take place. Most brutal, immoral, illegal theft maybe in human history on both sides. former truck drivers, flourists, night guards, policemen, waiters, small cafe owners becoming billionares over night. Now that is the true goal of war. You think they care about lives lost? lmao @ you naive fools, burried in nationalist hate, you are the product of their evil lies, that's what they wanted you to become
before I get attacked, I must say that I am croat, been living here since I was born, grew up during the war and then later realised what happned. I don't hate my country, I'll defend it when I feel the need, and I don't agree with Jiras's chetnic illusions of para state called "krajina". I do however, refuse to admit Croatian politicians ( to this date) did anything good for this country. And I pitty the croatian fools who think of late president tudjman as our saviour.
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Post by Postit on Aug 17, 2004 22:56:03 GMT 1
Well said C H, you seem like a smart person who knows what he's talking about.
Although I do not agree with everything that you said (including that commie yuga was serb dominated and I do belive that Krajina is serb land) However I will not get into that and start argueing as it is pointless, we all have our seperate opinions.
However I do agree with 95% of everything else you said. The war would not have happended if it was not for Tudman and Milosevic. I hate seeing so many serbs regard Milosevic as hero, when he was just as repsonsible for the war as Tudman, USA and germany,, in my opinion.
Serbs were fed with tons of anti - croat propaganda just as croats were fed with anti-serb propaganda (The first casuality of war is always "truth") This created enormous ethnic hatred between serbs and croats and only heightend the killing.
I hate when I hear serbs say "it wasnt our fault it was all beacause of the croats and I just as much hate when I hear croats say "It wasnt our fault it was all because of the serbs"
Everyone was equally responsible for the killings, but not because they are horrible people who just hate serbs/croats,,, it was because our governmet who wanted a war, and through media/propaganda fueled this angre and hatred, which still continues today...
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Post by Aljosa on Aug 25, 2004 11:16:44 GMT 1
CH, I would rather live under the Croatian flag than the comunist serb rule. I agree war is not needed, but the Croats where the ones who always brought the income in.
Polititians will always be the same, but I would rather support my own traditions, culture, and cuisine, than the serb, that goes for cyrilics as well.
You may be a Croat, would you sell you country and let the serbs walk all over , because Mili and Tud decided to have a war???
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Post by Joe Sakic on Aug 26, 2004 23:00:43 GMT 1
Everyone was equally responsible for the killings, but not because they are horrible people who just hate serbs/croats,,, it was because our governmet who wanted a war, and through media/propaganda fueled this angre and hatred, which still continues today... Don't give me the typical serb b.s that all sides were equal...no one stepped one foot in serbia...no one occupied serbia. All fighting was done in Croatia and Bosnia and Kosova. There were no Vukovar's or Srebrenicas in serbia for example. Serb apoligsts want everyone to think all sides were equal to try and somehow wash away all they did in the sick pursuit of "greater serbia". To equate the aggressor serbs with everyone else is just pathetic and sick. They started and lost four wars, now this postit character says all sides were equal...give me a phucking break.
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Post by Airma on Aug 26, 2004 23:39:33 GMT 1
Yes you are right Joe! All sides were not equal it was mostly croats who ignited the war, and statred ethnically cleansing serbs! Good Point! PS - What is Kosova
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Post by Airma on Aug 27, 2004 0:07:08 GMT 1
1) You are not a croat, you are a albanian propagandist. Croats dont call Kosovo, KOSOVA, not even extreme nationalists.
Why do you think that serbs attacked croatia? (and bosnia for that matter?) Was it really because they were "land hungry". I mean think about it...... If the serbs really wanted greater serbia, why do you think they didnt attack the more weaker suceptable countries such as Macedonia or even Montenegro and call it "Serbia". Because they have no need to fear for the lives of serb minority in these orthodox countries. Nor have they ever needed to fear for their minorites in these countries.
Regarding Krajina, after what the Ustasa did for their of war independnce it would not be so hard to belive that croats could do the same thing again (Not all Croats, but many children and grandchildren of the Ustasa were in the croat army who could have easily killed serbs if they wished.
Now, does this justify a war? Just because serbs thought the croats may do it again??? No your right it doesnt. However when croatia decided to separte thats okay... However its borders were based on communist designs and were not the official borders to be kept if it was to separte... A large part of Croatia (Krajina) wanted to stay together with Yugoslava and not become a soverine state with croatia. At this time reports started coming in that serbs were being to be expelled from Croatia and as for other reasons Yug army decided to occupy Krajina. And for those who deny ethnic cleansing..... Okay... lests say you are right and that croat army never ethnically cleansed any serb... However what you forget to take into account is human menatlity. During the time of the war both serb and croat media was presented in a way which saw the other side as murders/killers/ethnic cleansers..... I am 100% sure that many serbs died and were expelled by croats hands and VICE VERSA,, i admit. However lets say a group of croats are viewing these images on TV and hate is being created within them day by day, sooner or later they will explode and large crowds will appear in streets and riots in fronmt of residential buildings demanding for serbs to get out and go to the mother land. (They are angry and full of hate and this is how they are expressing it)
I dont blame them for thinking that way,, I mean if my country was being attacked by a foreing power what else could I do with my anger but demand all of those of the nationality that are attacking my nation leave.... However my feelings dont justify what I am doing.
Look,,, its just the way I see it okay??? I am sure you and many people will disagree, ali .... Its only my opinion you can state yours I would love to hear what you have to say as well, however lets not turn this into a big fight.
Regarding Bosnia, what happended in Srebrenica was horrible and an embarssment to all serbs. Regarding attacking Bosnia,,,,, Serbs and Croats felt it was there land in some way and wanted their peice of it,, which I think both sides deserved since I do not belive the whole land should belong to the muslims... at least I hope you can agree with me on that (that is if you really are croat and not albanian)
Finally reagrding Kosova as you stated. Before the boming USA claimed 100,000 citzens were slaughtered by the horrible serbs. After the war truns ou the numeber was reduced to 10,000 and finally once the UN came in they only concluded that in all the mass graves and supposed "atrocity sites" only 2000 bodies were found, majority which belong to serbs and serb army militia!
I am sure that some innocent albanians did doe due to serbs army and my heart is with those inocent albanians who died... Howver that does not excuse the halocaust which is happeing in Kosovo against serbs today...
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Post by Airma on Aug 27, 2004 0:11:29 GMT 1
Yes you are right Joe! All sides were not equal it was mostly croats who ignited the war, and statred ethnically cleansing serbs! Good Point!quote] Well I do take this statement back... Its not fair for me to say that it was the "Croats" fault. You cant blame a whole people I would rather say it was individuals such as Tudman, Milosevic, IzIzetbegovic, who ignited the war and hatred. My apologies....
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Post by svugrek on Aug 27, 2004 1:58:25 GMT 1
airma, why do you even bother spreading this crap, when the entire planet knows the truth who and why attacked who. I wonder if you were hibernating from 1991 to 1995. Anyway, did you know Serbia was accused of everything that you have been trying to attach to Croats? Generations and generations of Serbs will be paying that war damage you caused in Croatia and Bosnia. If you think that Croatia started the war, how come Serbia doesnt think about any lawsuits against Cro and BiH??? Cuz you can't prove absolutely anything, everything would be just an inhuman lie! And stop selling this bullnuts about Tudjman and Milosevic how they decided that this war should have happened. If you think that i am some supporter of Tudjman, you are so mistaken. I did not ever like him mostly because of his passion for stealing and corruption that cost Croatian economy a lot. But only because of people like you that intentionally lie like total pscyhos, speaking of Tudjman's role in this brutal war, I find him the best person at the right position and at the right time. If there had not been him, today Croats would've been still learning cyrilic in schools and all the money would still go to Belgrade just as it was a case during the ex-Yugoslavia! No, thank you! Maybe in next life (if you believe in it).
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Post by svugrek on Aug 27, 2004 2:12:31 GMT 1
The aim of Serbia is to create a Greater Serbia i.e. to unite all areas of former Yugoslavia in which the Serbs live, no matter whether they are a majority or minority. It should also include areas with no Serbian population, the reason being their geographic position. The fact that all those areas have never, throughout history, been part of Serbia bears no importance to Serbian leaders. The idea is, to put it modestly, an imperialistic one, moreover, one of the kind known to all as inspired by the "Blut und Boden" ideology. Knowing that in such a state Serbs would actually be a minority against non-Serbs, in its realization ethnic cleansing is practised i.e. persecution and extermination of the Croats first of all, but villages with Hungarian or Czech majorities are not spared either. Everything is followed by the intentional destruction of all traces of Croatian culture which bear witness to a millenary continuity of Croatian existence and Croatian statehood. The colonization of the Serbian people is intended for deserted Croatian villages (example: region of Baranja).
It is very important to stress the perfidious mode of campaign. Since Serbia in all ways tries to hide its real role and officially denies its participation in the war, Serbia uses the service of the JNA for reaching its aims. In this army the non-Serbs from Serbia (Hungarians, Slovaks and others) and Serbs from B-H are recruited. Volunteers from Serbia, members of paramilitary neo-Chetnik units are engaged as well. For attacks on Croatia and logistic support for the occupation forces, territory of the third republic has been used (B-H). It is only on the battlefields in eastern Slavonia that attacks come directly from Serbia. The Montenegrins are recruited as well and during the attacks on Dubrovnik, the territory of Montenegro was used.
Serbia's relation with the Serbs in Croatia is at the highest level of instrumentalization and manipulation. Most of them were forced to commit war crimes against the republic whose citizens they are.
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Post by svugrek on Aug 27, 2004 2:13:32 GMT 1
Up till now all battles have taken place on Croatian territory. In these battles most of the victims were citizens of Croatia irrespective of their ethnicity. Only Croatian towns and villages were destroyed. No Croatian soldiers are fighting outside Croatia. So, there is no doubt that we are dealing with a campaign and an aggression against Croatia. Therefore, the main aim of Croatia is to stop further fighting, suffering and destruction. The political aim of Croatia is a full sovereignty and international recognition as well as the building up of its democracy. Because of such aims, Croatia asked the European Community for help believing that its goals were in full accordance with the EC's interests.
Regarding the question of the Serbian minority, Croatia proposes a solution which Europe can easily recognize. It offered and guaranteed a high level of autonomy and home-rule in a proportion with the share of the Serbs and all other non- Croats in the areas where they live and this under international control.
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Post by Airma on Aug 27, 2004 16:33:02 GMT 1
As much as I would like to say that all your are saying is lies, propagnada, one sided, etc.. I wont
Not because I cant but it serves no point. I am never goiing to convert you to my way of thinking, and you will never convert me to your way of thinking....I think we can both agree on that.
Extending these conversation will only start fighting and go nowhere.
Just as a quick note,, Everything I have learned about the war and whos fault it is etc, is probobly much different that your side,,, I know you are not 100% correct but I also know that I cant be 100% about everything I say... perhaps much of it is opinions.
I suppose the truth is always somewhere in the middle.
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Post by C H on Aug 28, 2004 13:11:34 GMT 1
Svugrek, although I must agree with some things you said, I can also see that you think as many people in Croatia about Tudjman's role. He is not the one that brought independance to Croatia, people who lost lives did. In 1988/89, when there were talk about Croatia splitting up from Yugo, Tudjman was not even a favoutire to become a president. His past comminust/general roles in Yugoslavian Army and the fact that he had 2 serbian grandsons were not favoured by true Croatian nationalists. But, people who had the influence amogst Cro people in the world soon realised that Tudjman would be ideal president, as he was rather unintelligent, not very educated, and above all easy to manipulate. Mafia with Gojko Susak and other Croatian "nationalists" saw the oportunity in Tudjman as he proved to be a very weak man. Don't kid yourself, Susak was the true ruler of Croatia and Tudjman was just his puppet. If Susak wanted, he could have taken power any time because people loyal to him, mostly from Herzegovina, had all key positions in army/politics. The only thing Tudjman can be thanked for is the fact that Susak never became president, although during his life, he completely destroyed Croatia. During his envolvement in government as defence minister, Susak is responsible for establisihng a market of hard drugs, mainly cocaine and heroin. Before him, it was virtually impossible to score that kind of dope in croatia. The only people who could get you heroin were members of Albanian mafia, which was destroyed in big action in mid 80's. So, when Susak came, first thing he did was to sell big quantities of drugs. His explanation to Tudjman was that Croatia needs money from drugs to buy weapons. Of course, most of that money went to Susak's pocket, and also to members of his family and other members of "Herzegovina mafia" who still rule Croatia in every way. The money that has been left to buy weapons was in fact used for that purpose, but those weapons were shipped to Herzegovina for the need of Susak's private war there for "Great Croatia", a para state which cost Croatia lots of lives and money, not to mention our international reputation. Good thing about Tudjman was that he died just in time, so no sanctions were given to Croatia and HDZ lost elections. If Tudjman or Susak were alive today, I estimate we would be completely isolated from the world. Of course, if they were alive today, HDZ wouldn't have lost elections in 2000, because Tudjman wouldn't allow that, he would have kept his power even with force if needed. So, although he cost us dearly, I guess his positive move was in fact his death, as many thousands of lives were saved like that.
I did not claim that Croatia could gain indepence without war, as we were facing many Serb nationalists, but staged war which sost all sides tens of thousands of people can not claim Tudjman's role as a positive one.
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Post by svugrek on Aug 28, 2004 18:30:39 GMT 1
CH, everything you said about Tudjman and Susak is very true, therefore I 'agree with your whole last message! For the same reasons I didnt like them either. Sure Tudjman didnt create independent Croatia himself, but somebody had to be in charge, now whether it was him or Susak ( as you said ), doesnt make any difference. ( Unfortunately) Croatia neeed nationalists at that time to be on top of the governent, otherwise, we all know what would happen I am also glad that neither one of them is alive today cuz they both did a lot of bad things that affected our economy and reputation. That entire period from 1990-1995 was extremely rough for all of us, but that's what a war brings and takes. I usualy hate discussions about war in Cro, but I felt so humiliated and provoked by some people here twisting stories and truths.
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